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This may sound like a silly question, but I really don't know. And I'm speaking of history, say pre-1950. NOT current events.
OK, so my initial assumption would be that anyone living in the Mandate of Palestine after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire would be considered a "Palestinian"-correct or not? If so-the Mandate of Palestine consisted of what is now Israel and Jordan (or Trans-Jordan to be more historically correct I guess). Are those that were residents of the area now known as Jordan also considered Palestinians?
The entire mandate had residents with a variety of what...ethnicities? Religions? Islamic. Jew. Christian. Druze. I assume a number of others-are all of those considered Palestinians? After the formation of Israel, a significant number of "pre-Israel" Muslims remained in Israel and are embraced as Israeli citizens-are they Palestinians? Along with the Jewish and Christian residents that became Israeli citizens?
On the day of Israel's creation, they were attacked by 5 Islamic nations with the intent of eliminating the nation of Israel and Israeli citizens. A significant number of Islamic residents of the new state of Israel were driven from their homes when those countries invaded. What is not clear to me-what percentage of those "residents of the Mandate of Palestine" fought with the Islamic nations against Israel? Were the ones that fought against Israel allowed to return to their homes after the war?
Furthering my confusion-the "Jewish" or Western portion of the Mandate of Palestine was eventually proposed to be divided into Israel and "Palestinian" sections. The non-Israel sections were quickly overrun and occupied by the Islamic armies-with many of them eventually being taken by Israel by the end of the war. When those regions were absorbed into Israel at the end of the war, were those residents made Israeli citizens?
I know this may sound like a factious post to some, but it's not-I'm honestly trying to understand more of the history of the region at this time.
Related of course is the '48 war. Israel was a brand-new nation attacked on the day of it's founding. It had very little in the line of a military, just remnants of Jewish militias that both fought the British limiting Jewish immigration to the MOP, and that defended Jews from attacks from Islamist militias of the MOP. They had a minimal amount of weapons and equipment (a documentary I watched the other day said ONE tank and 5 pieces of artillery) and very limited training. While the attacking nations were well armed with British equipment supplied during and after WWII. In addition, the British (and I believe US and France) enforced an arms embargo against Israel, while the Soviets supplied the Islamic nations during the war. Those nations also had a mix of British and German military advisors from what I read. So, the question here is, just how did Israel manage to win this war against such overwhelming power? Seems impossible.
Also, was there ever a nation of Palestine, with their own government, civil services, etc? My understanding is no, but I honestly don't know-perhaps before the Ottoman Empire?
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 12-19-2023 at 06:11 PM..
Great questions, I hope this can be discussed respectfully so it doesn't get closed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
So, the question here is, just how did Israel manage to win this war against such overwhelming power? Seems impossible.
The Israeli's had interior lines, knew their goals and were highly motivated. That Arabs, they were in the reverse situation. Their attacks and forces were uncoordinated. Incidentally, the communist block supplied both sides in the conflict. The Soviet Union hoped Israel would become an ally so they were bigger supporters of Israel than the West in the 1948 conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake
OK, so my initial assumption would be that anyone living in the Mandate of Palestine after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire would be considered a "Palestinian"-correct or not? If so-the Mandate of Palestine consisted of what is now Israel and Jordan (or Trans-Jordan to be more historically correct I guess). Are those that were residents of the area now known as Jordan also considered Palestinians?
This is the big one. No one agrees on this and this is the source of the conflict. Israeli's claim that Palestine was present day Israel and Jordan combined, while the Arabs claim Palestine was just present day Israel. Look up the Balfour Declaration. Basically the British oversold the region and promised the same areas to the Arabs and the Jews. Then they walked away, thus creating the current conflict.
Great questions, I hope this can be discussed respectfully so it doesn't get closed.
I hope so as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuero
The Israeli's had interior lines, knew their goals and were highly motivated. That Arabs, they were in the reverse situation. Their attacks and forces were uncoordinated. Incidentally, the communist block supplied both sides in the conflict. The Soviet Union hoped Israel would become an ally so they were bigger supporters of Israel than the West in the 1948 conflict.
I didn't realize that Israel was supplied with Soviet equipment. I haven't seen any videos of Soviet tanks or aircraft, but didn't really notice wrt small arms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuero
This is the big one. No one agrees on this and this is the source of the conflict. Israeli's claim that Palestine was present day Israel and Jordan combined, while the Arabs claim Palestine was just present day Israel. Look up the Balfour Declaration. Basically the British oversold the region and promised the same areas to the Arabs and the Jews. Then they walked away, thus creating the current conflict.
This is what I have seen with regard to the earlier, 1922 League of Nations proposal. A 2-state solution with a Jewish and an Arab Palestine. Jews were prohibited from settling in the Arab section IIRC.
The Israelis in 1948 got hold of some castoff aircraft from Czech. and other Soviet block countries. The pilots were former WWII fighters from different countries; some came as volunteers and then went back home after the war.
Great questions, I hope this can be discussed respectfully so it doesn't get closed.
The Israeli's had interior lines, knew their goals and were highly motivated. That Arabs, they were in the reverse situation. Their attacks and forces were uncoordinated. Incidentally, the communist block supplied both sides in the conflict. The Soviet Union hoped Israel would become an ally so they were bigger supporters of Israel than the West in the 1948 conflict.
This is the big one. No one agrees on this and this is the source of the conflict. Israeli's claim that Palestine was present day Israel and Jordan combined, while the Arabs claim Palestine was just present day Israel. Look up the Balfour Declaration. Basically the British oversold the region and promised the same areas to the Arabs and the Jews. Then they walked away, thus creating the current conflict.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coney
The Israelis in 1948 got hold of some castoff aircraft from Czech. and other Soviet block countries. The pilots were former WWII fighters from different countries; some came as volunteers and then went back home after the war.
Arguably their best fighter aircraft were the Chech Avia S-199 fighters-a generally inferior takeoff of the BF-109. It was inferior to the actual BF-109, with a different, and less capable engine. The Israelis had about 25 of them. Meanwhile the Islamic forces were equipped with actual Supermarine Spitfires, a far superior aircraft (though I'm not sure which version).
Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê." Rome created Syrian Palaestina (aka Roman Palestine) as a senatorial province out of Judea. (The Roman Empire was a collection of imperial provinces, senatorial provienes and client states.) As long as the supremacy of Rome was acknowledged and tribute paid, the governors could pretty much do as they liked. That is of course a gross simplification as the period of Syrian Palaestina encompasses many years and a constant change of governors in the province and political and military leadership in Rome.
I didn't realize that Israel was supplied with Soviet equipment. I haven't seen any videos of Soviet tanks or aircraft, but didn't really notice wrt small arms.
They obtained cast offs from anyplace they could. The war was pretty much a bunch of small unit operations with very little heavy equipment.
Also, was there ever a nation of Palestine, with their own government, civil services, etc? My understanding is no, but I honestly don't know-perhaps before the Ottoman Empire?
This is a controversial topic. But a brief and neutral outline:
Background:
Ottoman Empire controls what is today Palestine/Israel. Nationalism, beginning in France at the start of the 19th century, and then creating many wars inside the Balkans (Ottoman territory at the time) is adopted by some wealthy and highly educated German, Austrian, Hungarian Jews. Pogroms of Jews, especially in Russia, lead to a Zionist movement. Meanwhile, nationalism comes to the heart of the Ottoman Empire too - the Turks. The Turks begin pressing on the Arabs their language, and the Arabs they control are beginning to want a future outside of Turkish rule.
Wealthy Zionist Jews from Europe begin buying properties in the territories of Israel/Palestine, with permission from the government. At this point, Jewish population was maybe 5% of Israel/Palestine and Jews lived fairly peacefully with the Arabs. Wealthy Zionist Jews began lobbying the Kaiser to allow more Jewish immigration to Palestine/Israel. At this point, it was Germany who was on good terms with the Ottoman Empire.
WW1:
What was supposed to be a short/quick war turned into a long, bloody affair. And the British were looking for ways to end the war, quickly. They began then promising everyone, everything. It first started with the Arabs in the Ottoman Empire, where the British solicited a Saudi family (Sherif of Mecca) from the Hashimite clan. They promised this family an independent Arab country, if in turn they would rebel and fight the Ottomans (who were on Germany's side in the war). Nationalism had come to the Arab world.
The British also had a separate deal with the French to give the northern Arab territories to them. The Arabs were not aware of this. They also promised Italy what would be parts of Turkey if they joined the war (they did), and Russia Istanbul/Constantinople.
But by 1916, while the Arabs did revolt and began driving out the Turks from their lands, with assistance from the British based in Cairo, the war in Europe was not going well. In fact, Russia basically folded, and was going through a bloody civil war, and soon a Bolshevik government would take hold and leave the war entirely. The British knew they could not win if not for a two-front war.
So that came in the Americans, and the Balfour declaration. Wealthy Zionists in the UK, connected to the Wealthy Zionists in the USA, promised to convince Wilson to commit more troops to the war if the UK would allow for the creation of a Jewish state on what is today's Israel/Palestine. Diplomats from the UK and USA worked out this declaration which was published in November 1917, shortly thereafter the Americans committed huge amounts of troops to the war effort, and Germany sued for peace. The Bolsheviks meanwhile released all the archives from the Tsars which showed and exposed a lot of double dealings by the British over this very issue. If you wondered why Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in WW1, this is why.
Post WW1:
Come treaty of Versailles, Britain had to begin honoring its promises to the Arabs, French, and the Jews. Which in turn it meant it had to break promises.
The hashimite clan sent out that their son, Faisal, rule over what would be much of today's Syria/Israel/Palestine. But Syria went to the French, leaving him with just Israel/Palestine. Which wouldn't entirely be his anyway, due to British promises to the Jews.
The Zionist movement was somewhat disappointed as they thought they'd be getting portions of what is today Syria and Jordan.
However, the UK opened up immigration to European Jews to Palestine. A lot of Jewish families began purchasing property from Arab landowners but evicting the workers (who lived there for generations) to replace them with Jewish workers. Faisal and the Mufti of Jerusalem begin seeing Jewish immigration as a threat to what was promised to them by the British. Nationalism after all had come to the Arab world. Arabs began pressuring the UK to stop immigration, and would occasionally carry out beatings/killings of Jews.
These random attacks led to Jews forming their own militias. Led to more segregation between Jews and Arabs, and started the mistrust between the two sides. During this time the Jewish population would swell to about 30% of Israel/Palestine. Mostly European Jewish immigrants, especially after Nazi's took power, and Jews were desperate to flee. In many cases, these European Jews had their properties confiscated and stolen by the Nazi regime (pre-Holocaust/WW2). Russian Jews, also accustomed to numerous pogroms, began naturally forming many of the militias and most of them were quite militarily experienced having served through the various conflicts in Russia.
As WW2 approaches, and the Arabs clearly unhappy with the British, and begin agitating for the UK to leave Israel/Palestine altogether, the British began arming Jewish militias and training them in case of war with Germany, the UK feared the Arabs could become a fifth column against them, much like they were against the Turks during WW1.
The UK tried to negotiate with the Arabs, but the problem was Faisal and the Mufti were having none of it. Faisal was given Iraq as compensation. But the Mufti of Jerusalem was left in charge and kept fomenting Arab nationalism, and how Palestine/Israel should be an Arab state.
This is a controversial topic. But a brief and neutral outline:
The British and French post WW1 were looking after the region on behalf of the League of Nations (UN). These were not colonies. Despite only holding the fort until the League of Nations decided what to do with region, the British built up Palestine. The Turks previously had done basically not much at all. The expansion of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv was done by the British, using a Scottish architect, in art deco. They also built an oil pipeline from Iraq to the Med coast, and also a refinery and built up agriculture. Palestine could feed itself and export some food.
The UN (old League of Nations) ultimately decided what to do with the region, with British and French help, creating the state of Israel. Britain was against its creation understanding the region, also abstaining from the vote in San Francisco. The British left their forts a day or so earlier than planned, with the Arabs occupying the forts.
The British did live up to their promise of not occupying Arabia post WW1, with it staying interdependent ever since.
The British and French post WW1 were looking after the region on behalf of the League of Nations (UN). These were not colonies. Despite only holding the fort until the League of Nations decided what to do with region, the British built up Palestine. The Turks previously had done basically not much at all. The expansion of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv was done by the British, using a Scottish architect, in art deco. They also built an oil pipeline from Iraq to the Med coast, and also a refinery and built up agriculture. Palestine could feed itself and export some food.
The UN (old League of Nations) ultimately decided what to do with the region, with British and French help, creating the state of Israel. Britain was against its creation understanding the region, also abstaining from the vote in San Francisco. The British left their forts a day or so earlier than planned, with the Arabs occupying the forts.
The British did live up to their promise of not occupying Arabia post WW1, with it staying interdependent ever since.
The UK had already taken hold of Israel/Palestine before the League of Nations even existed. It already promised France those territories (Syria) before the League even existed, those territories were simultaneously promised to the Arabs. The League was created at the treaty of Versailles after the victors already agreed on how to split up the Ottoman Empire.
Last edited by WaikikiWaves; 01-02-2024 at 10:03 AM..
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