section 4 of the 25th ammendment (general, 1990s, interior, crimes)

[dannyboy84]

So I was watching Designated survivor last night and they were Discussing section 4 of the 25th amendment and they made it seem like..very inaccurately that if the majority of the cabinet and the VP sign on then the VP automatically ascends to the presidency which anyone with a high school education...hopefully..knows thats not the case.

Now before I continue let me make some things 1000% clear. Almost any TV show or movie dealing with the presidency always inevitably has a story line dealing with section 4 of the 25th amendment..I remember it was a major sub-plot in the 1990s film Air Force One (which is actually very underrated). Secondly the following is simply for curiosity/education purposes. It is in no way meant to turn into a debate about weather or not it should be used on Trump or should've been used on past presidents.

What I want to focus on is the invocation and the president resist it..again will probably never happen because ALL presidents appoint people that would more or less stand by them, at least enough to block a majority. so here it goes:

I know the amendment says the VP will "ACT" as president but just curious because I always here conflicting reports.

Lets say the President suffers a massive stoke and is left a vegetable, but alive. Obviously it should be invoked but if its never fought after a few months and the president is still a vegetable but still alive could congress decide to officially remove the President? Impeachment would be harsh and unfair ( a stoke is not high crimes) but the president is obviously 100% unable to perform their duties and in the age of terrorism, cyber warfare and an ever changing world could a case be made for we need a "full" president not an "acting" president

Lets say the President says I am fine and the VP and cabinet says no you are not within the 4 days as specified in the constitution..its goes to congress..if 2/3 of House and Senate side with the VP is that a de-facto "no confidence" of the president? would the VP be only "acting" president or be elevated to full president? Can the president start the whole process over petitioning congress and having another vote within 21 days? (remember if congress does not vote within 21 days powers go back to the president so if they really do have no confidence in his abilities they have to vote.)

Lets say with regards to the above the vote is taken but the VP is still only ACTING president not a Full president section 4 was invoked because the president is diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease or the president is a fall down drunk due to the pressure of the job (I sure as hell would be) or some other case that can be made the president has taken leave of his sense invoking section 4, the congress sides with the VP being a drunk or illness is not an impeachable offense but the congress has no faith in the president, the VP and cabinet have no faith in the president but the president just to be a pain in the rear refuses to resign, can congress use their no confidence vote as a way to formally remove the president or are their hands tied?

If the president petitions congress saying he is fine but the VP and the cabinet haven't responded yet and its still in the 4 day mark as specified who is president? The amendment specifies the VP is acting president during the 21 days congressional deliberations but it doesn't specify during the 4-day lag, just after 4 days with no response from the VP and the cabinet the initial petition becomes void.
Can the president say i am fine, and fire the people who sided against them (the VP is elected and cannot be fired) before they go back to congress and say no he is not?

Sorry to be a pain but like I said this is strictly for educational purposes.

[Grandstander]

dannyboy84

Lets say the President suffers a massive stoke and is left a vegetable, but alive. Obviously it should be invoked but if its never fought after a few months and the president is still a vegetable but still alive could congress decide to officially remove the President? Impeachment would be harsh and unfair ( a stoke is not high crimes) but the president is obviously 100% unable to perform their duties and in the age of terrorism, cyber warfare and an ever changing world could a case be made for we need a "full" president not an "acting" president

The law does not have a provision for changing the acting president into the president. He/she is either the acting president or he/she is once more the VP. There would be no need for impeachment, the acting president is fully charged with the responsibilities of the office, it does not matter what we call this person.

Lets say the President says I am fine and the VP and cabinet says no you are not within the 4 days as specified in the constitution..its goes to congress..if 2/3 of House and Senate side with the VP is that a de-facto "no confidence" of the president? would the VP be only "acting" president or be elevated to full president?

The law specifies that the VP would be acting president, not president.

Can the president start the whole process over petitioning congress and having another vote within 21 days? (remember if congress does not vote within 21 days powers go back to the president so if they really do have no confidence in his abilities they have to vote.)

Once Congress had acted, it would be under no further obligation to re-hear the president's petition, but it could do so if it wished.

Lets say with regards to the above the vote is taken but the VP is still only ACTING president not a Full president section 4 was invoked because the president is diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease or the president is a fall down drunk due to the pressure of the job (I sure as hell would be) or some other case that can be made the president has taken leave of his sense invoking section 4, the congress sides with the VP being a drunk or illness is not an impeachable offense but the congress has no faith in the president, the VP and cabinet have no faith in the president but the president just to be a pain in the rear refuses to resign, can congress use their no confidence vote as a way to formally remove the president or are their hands tied?

The president being a drunk could be interpreted by Congress as an inability to discharge the duties of the office, and the VP could be named acting President.

If the president petitions congress saying he is fine but the VP and the cabinet haven't responded yet and its still in the 4 day mark as specified who is president? The amendment specifies the VP is acting president during the 21 days congressional deliberations but it doesn't specify during the 4-day lag, just after 4 days with no response from the VP and the cabinet the initial petition becomes void.
Can the president say i am fine, and fire the people who sided against them (the VP is elected and cannot be fired) before they go back to congress and say no he is not?

The 25th amendment allows up to four days, but there is nothing in the law which states that they must wait four days. If a sidelined president announced that he was ready to return, the VP, the cabinet and Congress could all reject him the same day if they acted quickly and resolutely.

[maf763]

I would imagine the VP would maintain the role of acting president until the four-day period passes, which would mean the president would not have the authority to fire the Cabinet. But this might be the kind of thing we wouldn't know for sure unless this very scenario happened and the Supreme Court had to rule on it.

[Arkay66]

Perhaps they are not referring to the 25th, but to the Presidential Succession Act:

3 USC §19. Vacancy in offices of both President and Vice President; officers eligible to act
(a)(1) If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is neither a President nor Vice President to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President, then the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, upon his resignation as Speaker and as Representative in Congress, act as President.
(2) The same rule shall apply in the case of the death, resignation, removal from office, or inability of an individual acting as President under this subsection.
(b) If, at the time when under subsection (a) of this section a Speaker is to begin the discharge of the powers and duties of the office of President, there is no Speaker, or the Speaker fails to qualify as Acting President, then the President pro tempore of the Senate shall, upon his resignation as President pro tempore and as Senator, act as President.
(c) An individual acting as President under subsection (a) or subsection (b) of this section shall continue to act until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, except that-
(1) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the failure of both the President-elect and the Vice-President-elect to qualify, then he shall act only until a President or Vice President qualifies; and
(2) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the inability of the President or Vice President, then he shall act only until the removal of the disability of one of such individuals.

(d)(1) If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is no President pro tempore to act as President under subsection (b) of this section, then the officer of the United States who is highest on the following list, and who is not under disability to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President shall act as President: Secretary of State, Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of Defense, Attorney General, Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture, Secretary of Commerce, Secretary of Labor, Secretary of Health and Human Services, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Secretary of Transportation, Secretary of Energy, Secretary of Education, Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Secretary of Homeland Security.
(2) An individual acting as President under this subsection shall continue so to do until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, but not after a qualified and prior-entitled individual is able to act, except that the removal of the disability of an individual higher on the list contained in paragraph (1) of this subsection or the ability to qualify on the part of an individual higher on such list shall not terminate his service.
(3) The taking of the oath of office by an individual specified in the list in paragraph (1) of this subsection shall be held to constitute his resignation from the office by virtue of the holding of which he qualifies to act as President.
(e) Subsections (a), (b), and (d) of this section shall apply only to such officers as are eligible to the office of President under the Constitution. Subsection (d) of this section shall apply only to officers appointed, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, prior to the time of the death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, of the President pro tempore, and only to officers not under impeachment by the House of Representatives at the time the powers and duties of the office of President devolve upon them.
(f) During the period that any individual acts as President under this section, his compensation shall be at the rate then provided by law in the case of the President.

[Labonte18]

Perhaps the more interesting part of this.. So.. John Q Smith is elected president. He is inaugurated on January 20th, 2033


On March 19th, 2033 he suffers a massive stroke and is left comatose. Congress immediately invokes section 4 of the 25th amendment and VP Jones becomes Acting President


In November 2036, we have another election. VP Jones is elected to his own term.



Now President Jones could run again in November 2040.. Thus serving 12 years as "President".. Almost 4 as Acting President, then 8 as President.

So far as I know, the only way a president can be removed from office is Impeachment. His presidential authority can be removed, but he cannot be removed from office other than through impeachment.