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I thought the Penobscot Expedition was the worst naval defeat the United States ever endured? Granted it was our first as well, but we lost all 43 ships, no British ships were lost and 435 US Troops lost their lives to 13 British troops.
(But we kicked their hiney's at Breeds Hill!)
Hmmm. Didn't Benedict Arnold lose a naval fight on Lake Champlain early in our rebellion against Britian?
What seems telling to me about Breed's Hill isn't the conventional American spin about citizen militia holding off two assaults by British regulars but that the regulars, after two very costly failed assaults, reformed and came on again and drove the final assault home. The fight showed the superiority of regulars over militia, a lesson Americans had to relearn several times in our early history.
Hmmm. Didn't Benedict Arnold lose a naval fight on Lake Champlain early in our rebellion against Britian?
What seems telling to me about Breed's Hill isn't the conventional American spin about citizen militia holding off two assaults by British regulars but that the regulars, after two very costly failed assaults, reformed and came on again and drove the final assault home. The fight showed the superiority of regulars over militia, a lesson Americans had to relearn several times in our early history.
Maybe you are right...I rechecked my post and I did say Naval Battle instead of saying the US Navy's first battle which would be more accurate.
As for the battle of Breed's Hill/Bunker Hill, I am sure it was sensationalized to some extent as all war battles are, BUT from the family accounts of two family members that were there, things pretty much happened as they said they were. The Wikipedia account I just used to check my Great Grandfathers² account seemed to match up pretty well. It does mention an entire militia attachment starting to defect but when a group of regulators trained their guns on the defectors, they came back and held on until the powder and musket balls ran out.
My Local Library has a lot of information on the Revolutionary War and when I get some time I will check up on it. I got a couple of family members that were at Breed's Hill/Bunker Hill, but I have yet to find all their names in the history of it. One name recently popped up when I read an 1840's diary of a Great Uncle² where the author talks about "Grandfather Page liked to entertain us children about when he held back the Red-Coats from the top of Bunker Hill." So far I have been unable to find that name however, but the last name of Page is hard to do in an online search. I just need to get my hands on books and do a far better search.
In my mind, Franklin is tied with the day of Hancock's assault on the angle at Spotsylvania as the most horrifying day of Civil War combat. In both cases the situation was created where the opposing sides were sheltering on opposite sides of the same fieldworks, neither able to go forward nor retreat, simply kill, kill, and be killed for hours on end. The dead couldn't be removed, the wounded could not be evacuated, the entire concept of command and discipline was impossible and everyone around you seems to have gone mad with bloodlust.
I'll have to read up more on those.... Where do you rank the Crater at Petersburg and Ball's Bluff?? Are they even close to the two you mention here?
With Ball's Bluff maybe the casualty list wasn't as long, but I can only imagine the choice that many Union soldiers had to make; jump, surrender or be killed (and who knows whether surrender would have been accepted under heavy fire?)...
I'll have to read up more on those.... Where do you rank the Crater at Petersburg and Ball's Bluff?? Are they even close to the two you mention here?
Ball's Bluff was misery for the Northern forces but a cakewalk for the Confederates, it also wasn't close to the scale of either of the engagements I mentioned. The Crater was god awful for the Union side, but after the losses from the explosion, the Confederates had a shooting gallery situation on their hands and turned matters into a one sided affair that was over relatively quickly. Hancock's assault on the angle, and the battle at Franklin, were both protracted affairs and absolute hell for both sides.
Since you plan to read up on the battles that I referenced, it seems best to simply wait for you to make your own judgments on your question once you've become familiar with the facts.
We do not have an agreed upon standard defining "worst." Is it the highest casualty rate? The loss with the most severe consequences? The largest scale battle which resulted in a defeat?
For scope of ineptitude and embarrassment of execution, I would advance General William Hull's attempted invasion of Canada at the start of the War of 1812 as the leading nominee. What began as a grand vision of making Canada into an American colony, ended with the loss of Detroit to a vastly inferior force.
Among the more humiliating epidosdes of this campaign:
The American fort on Macinac Island was surrendered without firing a shot simply because a ragtag mixed group of British soldiers, Canadian fur trappers and a few Indians, arrived with an artillery piece. This loss caused Hull to cancel his invasion and hustle back to defend Detroit, all despite the absense of any truly organized opposition to that point.
Then the British commander, Sir Issac Brock, with a force half the size of Hull's, deliberately allowed some fake correspondence to "fall" into Hull's hands. This letter hinted that Brock had 5000 Indian allies under Tecumseh who were marching with Brock's combined regulars and Canadian militia. Hull was completely duped by this, so much so that when the British did arrive before Fort Detroit and opened a light bombardment, Hull decided to surrender the first day.
And not only did he surrender the entire force defending the fort, he also surrendered on behalf of two detached units which had not even arrived on the scene at that point.
The consequence was that America spent the rest of the war simply trying to recover what it had lost rather than gaining Canada. Had Canada fallen to the Americans, it could have been used as a bargaining chip to force a favorable and early settlement of the war on primarily American terms. Instead it remained a base from which England was able to operate and tie up American troops.
Hull was court martialed and sentenced to be executed, but was pardoned by President Madison
Ball's Bluff was misery for the Northern forces but a cakewalk for the Confederates, it also wasn't close to the scale of either of the engagements I mentioned. The Crater was god awful for the Union side, but after the losses from the explosion, the Confederates had a shooting gallery situation on their hands and turned matters into a one sided affair that was over relatively quickly. Hancock's assault on the angle, and the battle at Franklin, were both protracted affairs and absolute hell for both sides.
Since you plan to read up on the battles that I referenced, it seems best to simply wait for you to make your own judgments on your question once you've become familiar with the facts.
Was simply asking your opinion, not trying to refute anything you said.
Since the topic was "Worst U.S. defeat" I guess I wasn't looking at stacking up bodies from both sides to reach an answer, but looking at a total one-sided victory for one side or the other.....
We do not have an agreed upon standard defining "worst." Is it the highest casualty rate? The loss with the most severe consequences? The largest scale battle which resulted in a defeat?
For scope of ineptitude and embarrassment of execution, I would advance General William Hull's attempted invasion of Canada at the start of the War of 1812 as the leading nominee. What began as a grand vision of making Canada into an American colony, ended with the loss of Detroit to a vastly inferior force.
Among the more humiliating epidosdes of this campaign:
The American fort on Macinac Island was surrendered without firing a shot simply because a ragtag mixed group of British soldiers, Canadian fur trappers and a few Indians, arrived with an artillery piece. This loss caused Hull to cancel his invasion and hustle back to defend Detroit, all despite the absense of any truly organized opposition to that point.
Then the British commander, Sir Issac Brock, with a force half the size of Hull's, deliberately allowed some fake correspondence to "fall" into Hull's hands. This letter hinted that Brock had 5000 Indian allies under Tecumseh who were marching with Brock's combined regulars and Canadian militia. Hull was completely duped by this, so much so that when the British did arrive before Fort Detroit and opened a light bombardment, Hull decided to surrender the first day.
And not only did he surrender the entire force defending the fort, he also surrendered on behalf of two detached units which had not even arrived on the scene at that point.
The consequence was that America spent the rest of the war simply trying to recover what it had lost rather than gaining Canada. Had Canada fallen to the Americans, it could have been used as a bargaining chip to force a favorable and early settlement of the war on primarily American terms. Instead it remained a base from which England was able to operate and tie up American troops.
Hull was court martialed and sentenced to be executed, but was pardoned by President Madison
Ah, crossed me up.... Yeah, I was thinking that some definition of "worst defeat" needs to be made....... I guess that's where I pulled Ball's Bluff from as one of the first off the top of my head..... But as you mention, it was a small-scale action, but was a horrific defeat as well....
The fall of Detroit? That's a good one Grandstander.
The fort on Mackinac Island was badly sited with high ground to it's rear, when the Brits put a gun up there the *** was up. Subsequently a small fort, Fort Holmes, was built up there.
The War of 1812 was full of American drubbings---Queenstown Heights, Chrysler's Farm, River Raisen, Dudley's Fall, second battle of Mackinac Island, Bladensburg Races, burning of Washington.......good thing Wellington argued forcefully to let us off the hook.
The fall of Detroit? That's a good one Grandstander.
The fort on Mackinac Island was badly sited with high ground to it's rear, when the Brits put a gun up there the *** was up. Subsequently a small fort, Fort Holmes, was built up there.
The War of 1812 was full of American drubbings---Queenstown Heights, Chrysler's Farm, River Raisen, Dudley's Fall, second battle of Mackinac Island, Bladensburg Races, burning of Washington.......good thing Wellington argued forcefully to let us off the hook.
The surrender at Mackinac wasn't so much a disgrace in itself as was the reaction of General Hull, who allowed himself to be stampeded by it, calling off his offense and going over to an inept defensive posture. At all times, Hull's forces were twice the size of his opposition and only a portion of that opposition consisted of British regulars.
I would be less willing than you to assume that Wellington's troops could have made hash of America's military efforts. We have the example of New Orleans where the attacking British troops were indeed composed of the cream of the crown's troops, no longer needed in Europe after Waterloo and shipped to America to facilitate the British notion of seizing and controlling the mouth of the MIssissippi. That clash ended with more than 2000 British casualties against 71 for Jackson's army.
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