Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I hope you read more about your other topics than about the Venezuelan radio station that was "shut down", which seems to be one of the showpiece arguments in your anti-socialist arssenal. If you had, you would know that if an American station had done the same thing, every member of the staff would either still be in prison, or have been exeucted. And the station remained on the air until its license expired, and it still broadcasting online and on satellite, without government obstruction. The fact that you used this example suggests that nothing worse is happening in Venezuela.
As for your principles of classical socialism, the events you described were applicable only the predictably bloody revolution envisioned to wrest economic power form the entrenched bosses, but were not part of maintaining a socialist state. I would welcome a link to a quote by Marx, Lenin or Engels advocating the starving or the machine gunning of inconvenient peasants. Don't forget what happened in Chile, "whenever a country goes" capitalist.
When the USA entered WWII, our own government was fully prepared to do everything that Hitler did to the economic infrastructure in order to assure a successful outcome. Instead, most were encouraged by a heavy dose of propaganda to do so voluntarily. War makes people act funny.
I hope you read more about your other topics than about the Venezuelan radio station that was "shut down", which seems to be one of the showpiece arguments in your anti-socialist arssenal. If you had, you would know that if an American station had done the same thing, every member of the staff would either still be in prison, or have been exeucted. And the station remained on the air until its license expired, and it still broadcasting online and on satellite, without government obstruction. The fact that you used this example suggests that nothing worse is happening in Venezuela.
As for your principles of classical socialism, the events you described were applicable only the predictably bloody revolution envisioned to wrest economic power form the entrenched bosses, but were not part of maintaining a socialist state. I would welcome a link to a quote by Marx, Lenin or Engels advocating the starving or the machine gunning of inconvenient peasants. Don't forget what happened in Chile, "whenever a country goes" capitalist.
When the USA entered WWII, our own government was fully prepared to do everything that Hitler did to the economic infrastructure in order to assure a successful outcome. Instead, most were encouraged by a heavy dose of propaganda to do so voluntarily. War makes people act funny.
In other words, when it came to your bizarre statement that World War II was started by capitalists, I caught you red-handed, called you out on it, and now you're feeding us a bunch of double talk. The Nazis were self-avowed socialists. And, if you add in Stalin's alliance with the Nazis in 1939 and 1940 (Chiefly so he could make a grab for Poland and the Baltic States), then the key actors in European hostility of the time were socialist states. To be charitable, we'll leave Mussolini out of this because his economic policies were all over the place--more of a kleptocracy than anything.
Second, your statement about American workers at a radio station being executed and imprisoned by the state perfectly demonstrates your tenuous grasp on reality. Meanwhile, Chavez isn't just shutting down one station. He's shutting down 34, all based on his new laws against harming the interest of the state, and you rationalize and applaud the man, you and the other apologists. The plan is to shut down 40% of the radio stations in that country, but you can't be bothered by facts. Hugo Chávez revokes radio station licences in wider media crackdown | World news | The Guardian. But hey, in your book, the ends justify the means, right?
As far as Marx openly advocating oppression, you won't find a passage. For Marx was about freedom for the workers, right? Yet, the dirty little secret of Marxist thought is that abolishing the classes ultimately requires extraordinary abuses of power and the halting of rights. Whether we're talking about the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea, Kampuchea, etc. etc. etc., the more thoroughly Marxist principles have been applied, the most likely an oppressive state arises.
The famine in Ireland, The British did nothing to help. some say that the British turned a blind eye to the problem in Ireland. hoping it would have exterminated the Irish population.
I dunno if that true..
Also, take your pick from history. the British were a brutal race.
You are right, Trotter. the British are generally --------. I would have a lot more respect for them if deposed their royal family and told them to get real jobs, especially since they havent had any real power for what has it been 150-200 years now?
Cpg, how do you think the USA government would react if there was open warfare in the American streets, with a lot of US radio stations broadcasting in support of the armed rebels, in fact fomenting the rebellion in the first place? Where are the machine gunners mowing down the Venezuelans who are protesting the radio shutdowns in the streets? The machine gunners you promised would be there, according to the fundamental principles of socialism. Can't have socialism without them.
True, this latest development is disturbing. Chavez has overstepped his bounds. Not because he is socialist, but because he is Chavez. With the government of the USA committed to destroying him and his policies. Not his social policies, not his economic polices. Just his oil policies, the single dipstick by which the USA defines morality and virtue.
You remain mysteriously silent on Pinochet. And the beautiful Russian example of free market economic paradise.
Cpg, how do you think the USA government would react if there was open warfare in the American streets, with a lot of US radio stations broadcasting in support of the armed rebels, in fact fomenting the rebellion in the first place? Where are the machine gunners mowing down the Venezuelans who are protesting the radio shutdowns in the streets? The machine gunners you promised would be there, according to the fundamental principles of socialism. Can't have socialism without them.
True, this latest development is disturbing. Chavez has overstepped his bounds. Not because he is socialist, but because he is Chavez. With the government of the USA committed to destroying him and his policies. Not his social policies, not his economic polices. Just his oil policies, the single dipstick by which the USA defines morality and virtue.
You remain mysteriously silent on Pinochet. And the beautiful Russian example of free market economic paradise.
First of all, the Russian markets are still highly state-regulated, run by former government apparatchiks, and highly dependent on commodities. So there goes that argument of yours.
Second, thank goodness that I wrung a small concession out of you on Chavez. Chavez's goons have committed plenty of acts of violence against protesters, thanks, the protesters who are outraged at the loss of civil rights. Here you go, Sparky. Knock yourself out. You're so blind in your adoration of Chavez, that you refuse to see the truth: Venezuela - Hugo Chavez - Human Rights - Alek Boyd | www.vcrisis.com
Now, back to Pinochet. Whoever said I endorsed Pinochet which, by the way, was not much of a capitalist state. In fact, only when Milton Friedman was brought in to bring on capitalist reforms did the repressive state begin losing its grip. Heck, I can drag out far more examples of repressive socialist states than you can of repressive capitalist states.
In the meantime, lets get back to your incredibly flimsy statement that World War II was caused by the capitalists? Because if you actually believe that the Nazis were capitalists, then not much else you say on this forum has much credibility.
The Nazis moved from being a socialist party to a business friendly one and the economically left wing elements (mostly SA) were purged and many of their leaders such as Rohm were killed.
The Nazis moved from being a socialist party to a business friendly one and the economically left wing elements (mostly SA) were purged and many of their leaders such as Rohm were killed.
Well, that's only because they became the business owners themselves. That's an important distinction.
Vcrisis was, in short, the personal endeavour of someone whose discontentment, towards the politicians of his country (Venezuela) . . .
=============
Considering the thread we are in, is it your contention that Chavez rivals Hitler?
==============
QUOTE: Heck, I can drag out far more examples of repressive socialist states than you can of repressive capitalist states.
There have only been a couple of dozen socialist states in the modern history of the world. There are more repressive capitalist states than that right nowl
Chavez is not socialist, in fact, he has no ideology whatsoever.
He's a Populist and his only goal is to perpetuate himself in power using any excuse.
Just like Castro.
Castro used the Cold War and Chavez uses oil and the remnants of the Cold War.
Never ending absolute power.
Just like Hitler?
At don't think he would cry if he had to kill or expell 10.000.000 Venezuelans.
Just like Hitler?
At don't think he would cry if he had to kill or expell 10.000.000 Venezuelans.
Unless you can back this up with any historical data, it doesn't constitute much of an argument in this forum. For example, a statistic indicating how many Venezuelans have so far died in a manner that can be attributed to Chavez policies. Or a reference to a specific point in the Chavez policy that would indicate that he is uncaring about the lives of his people.
He will have an opportunity to prove you right or wrong when his term of office expires. How much would you wager that he will do what you say, with such certainty, that he will do?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
