Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In fairness, almost all of those 91,000 were sick and starving. They were in dire need of food and medical attention which was in short supply for understandable reasons. Most of them died within days of surrender. Had their commanders allowed them to surrender earlier, more of them might have lived. I don't think the Russians deliberately wanted these people to die; they simply failed, for whatever reason, to provide for them urgent needed care.
I agree with everything, but the bold text. Stalin pretty much wanted everyone to die.
There was no official policy that I'm aware of that justifies that conclusion. Plus I'm sure these people would have been more useful as a cheap source of labor.
There was no official policy that I'm aware of that justifies that conclusion. Plus I'm sure these people would have been more useful as a cheap source of labor.
Being sent to gulags, and then being deprived of food and medical care when sent there, as well as the incredibly weakened conditions all of the Stalingrad survivors were in, means as much as anything to me that the Soviets wished death on those unlucky 6th Army POW's. The chances of surviving as an enlisted man was very slim. The chances of surviving if an officer were much better, and almost all the Generals were kept alive. Some of them joined Seydlitz and his anti Nazi alliance with the Soviets but most were aligned against joining the Soviets openly in rebellion against fascism. Those surviving POW's who survived the conditions even to make it to the gulags eliminated almost all the sick and wounded. For over two weeks some of these men were taken on rail cars with only barb wire as a roof across vast stretches of frozen Siberia. Many never even made it to the gulag and died either on the long march or the train ride, and those who did had overwork, disease and starvation waiting. Stalin was so paranoid that he sent most of the repatriated Soviets from German captivity into the gulags as well. Stalin had many former republics full of people who rebelled and fought with the Nazi's. He also had to know how many died while in captivity but to Stalin it was probably not enough. His death, and the ascension of Kruschev (who fought at Stalingrad) would mean the ultimate release of those Germans still alive in 1955.
Most German POWs at Stalingrad died before any Gulags. They died on marches to and in the so called "collection camps" that the Soviets organized to temporarily hold them while where they could be counted while the Soviets decided what to do with them. Those that did make it to work camps (not really Gulag), they were fed fairly well, given that even Russian soldiers and civilians weren't exactly eating caviar at that time.
You can make a case that Soviets were at fault for not readying trainloads of food and medical facilities in anticipation of the German surrender. But the number of POWs was larger than the Soviets anticipated and, again, food was scarce in the country as a whole. Taking care of POWs simply wasn't the highest priority. There was an 11 million men army that needed to be fed, and the Germans captured USSR's most fertile grain producing regions.
I don't think the Soviets are blameless but it is not as simple as saying "Evil Stalin starved 90 thousand people to death". Most of them had one foot in the grave anyway. And in any case, Soviet POWS had it much worse - check how many of THEM returned home. Also check how many people died in the siege of Leningrad while you are at it.
Quote:
Stalin was so paranoid that he sent most of the repatriated Soviets from German captivity into the gulags as well.
This is false. There were so called filtration camps meant to identify potential traitors or German agents. The vast majority of people in those camps were freed. Very few were sent to the Gulag or shot.
Stalin didnt trust returning POW's and many were sent to gulags, it could be as simple as what part of Russia you were from. Stalin was very distrustful of many soldiers who were pressed into service in the opening months, captured, extremely lucky to survive and then had to face his paranoia, in many instances likely justified, of people who opposed him. For this suspicion you would likely find yourself in detention. If they were from countries who had heretofore aligned themselves with Germany after Nazi forces invaded their countries out of revenge for the failed collectivization of the 30's that led to massive shortages and starvation (Ukraine, Lithuania, etc.. ) then your chances of seeing a gulag were far greater, and even likely. (Knowing how many were starved in Leningrad is immaterial to the argument.)
Of course many of the 6th Army soldiers were sick already, but conditions of their treatment after their surrender is what led to most of their deaths. Starvation, exposure and overwork all took an enormous toll, but the death rate of Soviet POW's dying in German camps was even far higher. Many Eastern Front POW's tell of cannibalism to survive, and the same was true for Soviet POW's, some of who also had to resort to this practice to survive
Anyways, I stated my opinion. You can make a case about Soviet negligence but you would be hard pressed to prove the existence of a deliberate official policy to kill POW's. Naturally, the Soviets didn't have much sympathy for the German POWs who, lets remember, were not some tourists taking a walk on the Volga riverbank enjoying its scenery and just happened to be captured by the evil NKVD. These were the people that just weeks before had leveled Stalingrad nearly to the ground, with much of its civilian population trapped inside. But again, there was no policy to exterminate them. To the contrary, I read reports that the POWs were fed butter, bacon and raisins, delicacies that many Russians saw only on holidays.
Look, it was a terrible war with many crimes committed by all sides, and that includes the Western allies. The firebombing of German and Japanese cities, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Japanese-American Internment camps are some examples. Lots of finger pointing to go around.
Anyway, we are getting further and further away from the original topic of this thread which was to mark the 65th V-E day anniversary. It is a cause for celebration for everyone. As the Soviet song says, "This is joy, with tears in our eyes".
Anyways, I stated my opinion. You can make a case about Soviet negligence but you would be hard pressed to prove the existence of a deliberate official policy to kill POW's. Naturally, the Soviets didn't have much sympathy for the German POWs who, lets remember, were not some tourists taking a walk on the Volga riverbank enjoying its scenery and just happened to be captured by the evil NKVD. These were the people that just weeks before had leveled Stalingrad nearly to the ground, with much of its civilian population trapped inside. But again, there was no policy to exterminate them. To the contrary, I read reports that the POWs were fed butter, bacon and raisins, delicacies that many Russians saw only on holidays.
Look, it was a terrible war with many crimes committed by all sides, and that includes the Western allies. The firebombing of German and Japanese cities, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Japanese-American Internment camps are some examples. Lots of finger pointing to go around.
Anyway, we are getting further and further away from the original topic of this thread which was to mark the 65th V-E day anniversary. It is a cause for celebration for everyone. As the Soviet song says, "This is joy, with tears in our eyes".
Not sure you're right about the Soviets and German POWs. My understanding is that they never released the German POWs. I'm not particularly concerned with that; the Germans launched a horrific war and deserved everything they got, x 10. But the western powers were more mild in their treatment of POWs than the Russians were, which explains why the soldiers preferred to surrender to the British or Americans, and why people moved from the Russian occupation zone to the British and American zones.
The end of that war was a great thing to celebrate. But the suffering of that war didn't end when the guns fell silent.
The USSR was not a signor to the Geneva Convention. After the start of the war, the Soviets offered to the German side to treat each other's prisoners in accordance with the convention (via the Swedish Embassy, I believe). The Germans did not reply (of course since they were winning at that time).
The USSR was not a signor to the Geneva Convention. After the start of the war, the Soviets offered to the German side to treat each other's prisoners in accordance with the convention (via the Swedish Embassy, I believe). The Germans did not reply (of course since they were winning at that time).
I have no sympathy for the Germans. It's hard to conceive of what they did, or why. But the USSR did some awful things to innocent non-Germans, particularly in Poland as well as other parts of Eastern Europe. Though they were on our side, and weren't as militarily aggressive as the Germans at the time, in terms of their treatment of people, it's highly debatable whether they were any better than the Germans.
After the war, the Russians forcibly resettled ethnic Germans from formerly German lands that were being taken by the Russians and/or given to Poland. Again, no sympathy for the Germans. This was done to prevent the existence of ethnic German minorities in those areas of what were to be foreign countries from being used to undermine those countries in the future, as Hitler had done in places like Czechoslovakia. People were simply taken from their homes and dumped into what remained of ruined Germany.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
