Asbestos in popcorn ceiling? (how much, laminate, AC, heater)
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I grew up in a family that was in construction. A good portion of the work they did was stucco, lath and plaster, and spray on ceilings.
When I was in high school in the 60's, I used to work summers on the job sites. I remember when my Grandfather got his first "Tommy Gun" that sprayed the material. Most of the time, I was just a grunt worker, but I spent many hours spraying ceilings.
I also remember the hod carrier opening bags of (what I now know was asbestos) an additive to the mixer with huge clouds of "dust" blowing in the air. I would hate to think of what his lungs looked like after years of mixing plaster and stucco. He would throw those 50 and 100 pound sacks up on the mixer and cut it open with a shovel, then shovel in the sand, etc. Huge mess.
Later in life, I inspected for asbestos in schools and County buildings. I had a lot of training to do that work. To see some of the flippant remarks made, it is obvious that some people don't really have the education and experience on the subject and rely on knee jerk reactions, or rely on some website for their information. Somehow it gets around to some sort of conspiracy or government plot.
There are a lot of asbestos containing materials that I would not want to be around. However, popcorn ceilings can be fairly easy to remove without exposing yourself to a release episode. Like others have said, you need to keep it very wet during removal, and dispose of it properly. Adding a wetting agent to the water also helps a lot. Fabric softener was the favorite of most removal contractors.
If someone wanted to dispose of asbestos and wasn't sure how to do it, they could mix it with concrete and make step stones or blocks. Of course, that is not an "EPA approved" disposal method, and is not allowed. I am not suggesting anyone use that method, I have only heard of someone doing it that way. Shame on them.
Keep it WET, WET, WET, when removing it, and don't scrape too hard.
I live in a house build in 1949, I have pop-corn ceilings ( yes, I like them too ), and I have exterior siding that ( I am pretty sure) just covers the original asbestos shingles. As far I know they are safe unless you start breaking, scraping or otherwise disturbing them. You need a long exposure to high concentrations of asbestos to cause health problems such as lung cancer and mesothelioma.
A common misconception is that ceilings containing asbestos can be identified based on appearance; however, this is not the case. Asbestos can only be seen through a special microscope. The only way to find out for sure whether you have asbestos in your ceiling is to sending a sample to a lab.
If someone wanted to dispose of asbestos and wasn't sure how to do it, they could mix it with concrete and make step stones or blocks. Of course, that is not an "EPA approved" disposal method, and is not allowed. I am not suggesting anyone use that method, I have only heard of someone doing it that way. Shame on them.
Aesbestos is inert. You can dispose of removed cieling materials by putting it in a bag and throwing it into the trash. You can bury it in your back yard. You can even eat it if you want to for some odd reason (don't it i s usually mixed with other things that will make you sick). What you do not want to do is concentrate the asbestos and inhale it daily for years and years.
It is possible some communities have special laws limiting disposal, but not aywhere I have lived or worked.
BTW responding to the prior post. I am not hip shooting. I have worked with dozens of actual experts on asbestos and resulting health conditons, both on behalf of poisoned workers and defending owers and more often house related claims (eeeww there is asbestos in my house, you have to give me money).
You get asbestos caused illnesses by breathing clouds of concentrated asbestos fibers on a regular basis for years and years (possibly decades).
You do nto get it by having it in your house, seeing it on the floor or even walking through a cloud of the dust on rare occaisions.
Due to all the hype, some people think it is a poison. Some people think it can hurt you by getting on your skin or if it is in the dirt in your yard. It is a fiber. The fibers have little hooks on them for want of a better explanation. If you breath clouds of the dust without a mask, some of the fibers attach themselves to the lining of your lungs and stay there. Over time, that becomes a lot of fibers stuck to your lungs. Either becuase gung collects around the fibers or because of the nature of the fibers themselves, this condiiont tends to induce various forms of lung disease including cancers. Workers who worked in clouds of the dust for years and years with no masks died truely horrid deaths. Most, possibly all were either heavy smokers or were frequently around heavy smokers. It is possible but not proven that a combination of asbestos fibers in the lungs and tobacco smoke causes the disease.
Outlawing asbestos products entirely was a typical government over reaction. Asbestos products can be made safely and can be great products. Some precautions are requried, but, in typical nanny state fashion, the products were simply outlawed. It is unfortuante, because we lost some of our better products as a result.
Lots of things in our houses are far more toxic and/or dangerous than asbestos. For example, lithim batteries, bug spray, gasoline, paint removers, natural gas, mercury, osome of the components of CRT picture tubes, freon (when exposed toflame), bleach and ammonia (when mixed), ladders, glass windows . . .
Every one of these items have sickened or killed more homeowners and their families than asbestos products in a house have (more than zero).
There are many things that are much worse for use to breathe when concentrated as well (silica, tobacco smoke, car exhaust).
However none of these products have been banned. It is not clear why.
Flour dust will explode with incredible force if it is ignited, yet flour bags do not even have a warning. They certianly have not made flour illegal.
The asbestos hype never made any sense to me and it makes less and less sense as I learn more and more about it. At least the other household threats that are ridiculously over-hyped are actually dangerous to homeowners (Lead paint, radon, mold, EMF waves, and possibly DDT for examples - although DDT has never been found to be dangerous to humans, in fact virtually everyone reading this ate some today). When my daughter becomes a psychology researcher, I am going to ask her to figure out why we as a society jump onto all of these crazy bandwagon threat hypes. Some of those chemicals are actually dangerous but they are nowhere near the threat they are hyped to be.
I just retired after 33 years in the Carpenters union. My last job was 3 years in a hospital remodel in Berkeley, CA. We would abate the ACM fireproofing, and then respray. Some of the floor tiles had a glue that was hot and required abatement. It was a big deal with double 6 mil visqueen containments. All had to be overseen by special inspectors. They wrote their own ticket as too how long they were there.
The worst was when we had to have two guys go through 40 hrs each of training to install two sheets of lead lined drywall. I had done this years ago without said training, but guess who taught it? Special inspector writing his own ticket again.
Is it good, bad, or evil? I'll let others decide. I do know that sprayed on acoustic ceilings have a very low concentration, and I've scraped a few in my life.
To the OP, no big concern for small amounts such as you mention. As for others, I would suggest doing as you feel. If you feel you need 40 hrs training to scrape a small amount. It will be up to you!
Should other be forced into removal of a hazardous substance on a daily basis without proper training and PPE's. IMHO, no. A few hours by a homeowner once in their life is a different equation.
I'm an environmental professional who train, inspect, design, and oversee asbestos projects on a day by day basis. I'm not going to spend time going over what is asbestos, health effects, proper removal, etc. etc. However, I will tell you that depending on the state you live in, you, as the homeowner can remove the material without any training requirements. Please be aware that there are no federal regulations that require homeonwers to identified if a material in the house is asbestos or not. However, if you are concern about exposure to you and your family, then I recommend the following:
1. either remove all your belongings or cover them with drop cloth;
2. minimize the spread of dust/fibers by containing the area from the rest of the house;
3. put on desposable coveralls and a respirator (P100) at a minimum;
4. with the use of a garden sprayer, use amended water (water with soup) to spray the ceiling;
5. with a scraper, scrape the material and place into a bag, once in the bag spray again, then tape the bag up.
6. if possible, use a vacuum with a HEPA filter as well.
7. make sure to collect, wipe, and vacuum all the debris from the drop cloth prior to removal
8. fold the drop cloth inward, then place in a bag.
9. mist and vacuum your coverall and place in the same bag as well.
Now the question about disposal. IF, and only if, you tested the material and is identified to be asbestos containing material (greather than 1% asbestos), then you are bound to the same disposal regulations as any asbestos contractor and all your waste will have to go to an EPA apporved landfill. However, if no testing has been performed, and you don't know if it is asbestos or not, then it can be disposed of as solid waste. Unfortunately, this is one of those areas people are confused, and even professionals in the business think that even if you know is asbestos, that you can just dump it anywhere or bury it in your backyard.
For Landlords, the information above does not apply to you or any contractor you hire to perform any type of renovation in your rental properties.
For Contractors, you are all required to follow OSHA 29 CFR 1926.1101 (asbestos) regulation on any commercial and/or residential project you perform. Now this regulation only applies for worker protection not the protection of the general public; however, if it is determine that you are exposing anyone (workers and public), then you can be cited by either your locality, state or federal government, as well as increasing your liability for lawsuits. Please know that any commercial project you work on, you and/or the building owner is required under the EPA 40 CFR Part 61 to identified all suspect and/or presumed asbestos containing materials that will be impacted during renovation and/or demolition, and proper abatement shall be performed (with the exception of some materials).
So where am I going with this - if you are a homeowner (not a landlord) and you reside in that home, then it is best not to test the material, but still follow some type of safety procedures when disturbing them. Otherwise, you will be required to properly dispose of it, costing you between $50-200/cubic yard, maybe more, depending where you are and how far it has to be shipped.
FYI - asbestos has only been legally banned from fireproofing and thermal system insulation. It is still being used in a large number of products in the United States.
"ASBESTOS BAN & PHASEOUT RULE
In 1989 EPA published the Asbestos: Manufacture, Importation, Processing, and Distribution in Commerce Prohibitions; Final Rule (40 CFR Part 763, Subpart I). The rule would have eventually banned about 94 percent of the asbestos used in the U.S. (based on 1985 estimates). However, in 1991, the U.S. Court of Appeals, Fifth Circuit, vacated and remanded the majority of the rule. Currently, the manufacture, importation, processing and distribution of most asbestos-containing products is still legal." from the EPA website, see link for more information Asbestos | Region 6 Multimedia Programs | EPA Region 6
I'm stunned. An EXCELLENT post from an asbestos abatement pro. One that is not trying to spam, not flying over-the-rooftops with fear, but just good, solid info. Great job RedRican.
Nver seen one perosnally that was nayhtig but styro foam groundup and texture used on other walls.There is much mroe a case of insualtion and sinualtion wrpped pipes i older homes. But even this can be removed with the right technic.
I read through the thread so I apologize if I somehow missed it - but can anyone give me an idea of cost for removal of popcorn ceilings? We are purchasing a 1200 Sq. Ft. home that has them, and we want them dealt with/gone/out-of-there before we move in.
What is the process for hiring someone to remove them? Do you get cost estimates from several licensed contractors and then choose one, or ?
(Yep - this is our first home, we don't know anything! )
I read through the thread so I apologize if I somehow missed it - but can anyone give me an idea of cost for removal of popcorn ceilings? We are purchasing a 1200 Sq. Ft. home that has them, and we want them dealt with/gone/out-of-there before we move in.
What is the process for hiring someone to remove them? Do you get cost estimates from several licensed contractors and then choose one, or ?
(Yep - this is our first home, we don't know anything! )
The first thing is that you should make your purchase contract contingent upon an environmental inspection. If asbestos is detected in the ceiling, get at least 3 quotes from license asbestos contractors. Make sure the provide you with proof of license, insurance, references, as well as a plan on how they will perform the abatement.
You are looking at approximately $7200 (low end) to as much as $12000 cost, maybe more. It depends on your location and what time of the year is performed.
We just bought a house with popcorn ceilings in many of the rooms. The house is perfect other than those awful ceilings!! The finished basement/ bathrooms and kitchen do not have them. We are going to have it removed before we move in. For approximately 2200 square feet of popcorn removal it will be $3500. Our contractor is a family friend though, and from what I understand that is a bargain.
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