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Hi all, I was wondering if someone knowledgable in building materials could help me place the age of a home we might be putting an offer in on.
It's in the historic district (surrounding homes built in the late 1700's and 1800's), and city records say it was built in 1939
I am pretty sure the home is a good amount older than this though.
Materials:
-Roof is slate with boards underneath at a diagonal.
-Attic is joists (2x6)
-Walls are plaster with the horizontal boards all the same width.
-Claw-foot tub in the bathroom upstairs
-narrow (3"?) wood floors upstairs
-windows are double-hung with the cords on the side.
-Siding is painted wood (nothing interesting)
-Lower level is an old storefront with 10' tin plate ceilings
-In the basement there is an old coal furnace, as well as the hookups and oil stains indicating that it had an oil furnace at one point. It is currently heated by natural gas.
-Old knob-and-tub wiring left behind in the basement. (been upgraded)
-Noticed cut square nails down there!
-Foundation is concrete, with concrete pillars which have started falling apart at the bottom, and have been backed up by steel pillars. (looks like the larger river rocks settled to the bottom of the pillars when they were poured)
I did some research, and from around 1910 until the 1950's a man ran a grocery store at this location. Found a permit from 1945 for an installed "cold storage box". Also found a plat of the area from 1930 showing the exact outline of the building, and even the same rear deck. An ad from 1933 also shows the same corner grocery store, so my guess is that the building is at least as old as 1910. (1910 is the oldest census which shows this man running a grocery store at this location)
I also found a map with building outlines from 1878, and the outline of the same sized building (no rear deck) is there! Right against the sidewalk on the front and one side, with the same space on the other side and back. Is there any chance the place might be that old?
I also found a map with building outlines from 1878, and the outline of the same sized building (no rear deck) is there! Right against the sidewalk on the front and one side, with the same space on the other side and back. Is there any chance the place might be that old?
Yes, especially being in Virginia.
What type of foundation does it have? What type of architectural design?
Can you post a picture?
btw, you don't want to designate it as a historic home because that will severely impact what you can do to the property.
Concrete foundation on the bottom and sides, with concrete pillars in two rows from front to back. They hold up two huge wooden beams which support the floor joists, and there is a diagonal wood sub-floor.
Check into that... often such means the bldg existed before the records were updated
at some often arbitrary point (1939 in your case).
Quote:
Just checked property tax records, and the lot shows "vacant" until 1869,
when taxes show a building on the property...
That sounds about right. The building in the picture looks like later 1800's work
and that area would have had a fair bit of new construction in the years right after the war
I can't agree completely with the 1800 guestimate. I see what looks to be vinyl siding which was invented in the late 50s but of course this modern siding could be covering something much older. The style of the house just don't fit the 1800 style to me. I don't believe I see a driveway which leads me to believe pre 1930s.
Since most neighborhoods were all built at about the same time, talk with some neighbors. Some of the old timers may have valuable information. I trust nothing the govt says but I have no suspect why they'd have records showing 1939 and it being false. Dig deeper in city records for clues. When was city sewer run up that street? When was the street paved? Who is the longest resident of that street? Go knock on their door and ask questions. Chances are they will be thrilled to meet you and share their knowledge and wisdom.
Old houses are so charming. Just learning the history of your new home is going to be exciting. Good luck
Without precise records, yu will not likely ever find a firm answer, just clues.
Your local library history room may have the old Sanborn maps. That is a great resource for determining when your house was there or was not. They were usually very accurate. Other information (like census) is often inaccurate. Photographs can be a good source of information, often you can find them back as far as 1910, however often they were not dated, so you may fins an old photograph but have no idea when it was taken (cars and clothing can help you figure that out though).
-Roof is slate with boards underneath at a diagonal.
Could be pretty much any time
-Attic is joists (2x6)
True 2x6 or milled to 1.5" x 5..5" ? This can be a good clue, although milled down lumber may be a more recent repair or addition. If it is true sized lumber, that will give you a minimum age. Is the lumber rough cut? That can also be a clue. Are the joists nailed or pinned. You may not be able to tell, but Brace framing vs. Baloon framing can be a clue as well.
-Walls are plaster with the horizontal boards all the same width.
Covers a wide time span, but probably eliminates 1940s. They were usually using diamond lath by then I think.
-Claw-foot tub in the bathroom upstairs
The means 1870s - 2013 construction.
-narrow (3"?) wood floors upstairs
What kind of wood? Generally it does not tell you much. But it can be a clue in some circumstances. What types of wood was used in similar houses of various ages in your area?
-windows are double-hung with the cords on the side.
Again this is a pretty long time span. I am not certain, but I think that eliminates pre-1850s. The 1850s or earlier DH windows I have seen were all held up by pins or just by friction. We have double hung with ropes in the 1868 addition to our house, so they were commonly used by at least 1868. We are fairly certain those were the original windows in the 1868 addition. I have been in 1940s houses with double hung windows with ropes. So that may give you abotu a 100 year time span possibility. You can probably pin it down a bit more with research.
-Siding is painted wood (nothing interesting)
The type of siding can be a very good clue if it is the original siding. Ship lap has been used for centuries, but the size of the boards and the type of wood can tell a lot. Railroad siding was generally used during certain periods in various areas. The uniformity and thickenss of the siding can tell you a lot. Square nails or round holding up the siding?
Problem is many houses were re-sided, so siding may tell you a minimum age, but newer siding does not mean the house was new.
-Lower level is an old storefront with 10' tin plate ceilings
Sounds nice, but that could be 1880s through today. Your store permit records or old phone books may be some good clues through.
-In the basement there is an old coal furnace, as well as the hookups and oil stains indicating that it had an oil furnace at one point. It is currently heated by natural gas.
OIl and coal are still used today. It was likely originally wood or coal. That does nto tell you anything really.
-Old knob-and-tub wiring left behind in the basement. (been upgraded)
Again a very long time period, plus the K & T wiring you are looking at could have been put in fomr 1910 thorugh the 1940s. However the type of insulators can tell you something sometimes.
-Noticed cut square nails down there!
That can be a good clue. Pull one out and see if you can find out how it was made. Machine made vs. smithed gives you a time break. It is not definitive. You can still buy square cut ails today and they hold better then round nails. Sometimes people who know that will use them for certain applications. Usually however it can give you a date range if you can find out how your nails were made. Again those nails may be in a modern addition or reprair so if they are newer square nails it does not mean you house is not older. But if they are older type of square cut nails, it probably means your house is at least as old as when they stopped using that type in your area. Also find out when they went from pegs to nails for framing in your area. If all your framing is nailed, then it probably indicates the house is no older than that transition. It is not very common for framing to be re-done, so your framing is usually a pretty definitive clue.
-Foundation is concrete, with concrete pillars which have started falling apart at the bottom, and have been backed up by steel pillars. (looks like the larger river rocks settled to the bottom of the pillars when they were poured)
This will depend in what was done when in your area. Those river rocks could well have been used to fill the column base in order to reduce concrete costs. Outside vs. Inside access to the basement can be a good clue. Inside basement access is a more modern development, but some inside accesses were cut in later. You can tell by looking at the framing around the stair opening.
What type of floor joists do you have? Really early homes often just had logs flattened out on one side. They did not bother squaring off the entire log because there was no purpose in it. You only needed one side.
Other clues:
Are the stairs unusually steep and narrow, or are they standerd risers?
Is the coal chute part of the original construction or was it cut in?
Original window glass (if any) floated or rolled?
Baseboard size and thickness and type of wood (although baseboard was often "updated").
Cast iron or clay tile sewer pipe? Even if the sewer pipe is new, the old pipe was commonly left in place.
Was the back porch once open? (Most have since bee enclosed, but nearly all houses had open back porches for a time.
Cieling height can be a clue, but not always. High ceilings are popular for a time, but if you go way way back,, cielings were usually lower.
Does the fireplace(s) have a smokeshelf? What kind of brick or stone was used to make the fireplace(s).
Is the kitchen an addition? Most houses had detached kitchens until a certain time period. (Kitchens caught fire frequently and you did not want all that heat added to your house in the summertime).
Burlap or muslin behind the plaster?
Nothing is definitive. Everthing is just a clue. Add all the clues and you will get an near defintie answer sometimes. Other times you think you have the definitive answer and something comes along and causes you to learn you are wrong.
OUr house was built in 1836, but it was extensively remodeled in 1850 and doubled in size. Another major addition was made in 1868. Then it was modified quite a bit in 1946. The prior kitchen was a milking barn that predated the house, and which was pushed up against the side of the house to from an attached kitchen in 1868. However the cabinets, siding flooring, and fixtures in the kitchen were from about 1927. The windows were from the 1970s. Thus the kitchen could give you clues of anything from pre -1836 through the 1970s - all of which would be wrong. When we moved the house, the kitchen could not come so we built a new kitchen. However we built it almost entirely from salvaged materials ranging from the 1700s through 1930s and some modern materials. We used square nails in some visible locations but nail guns were used in framing and things you do not see. Someone analyzing our kitchen in the future could find clues leading them to believe it was built any time in the past 200 years. However, it was built in 2006.
You are simply not likely to ever be able to definitively pin down an exact date. Find out what you can, believe in a supportable date that makes you happy, and you are good to go.
If property records give you the owners names than you can search back through the census at www.familysearch.org The 1870 U.S. census is the first to list addresses. There is also an ED (Enumeration District) finding aid at www.stevemorse.org for the census if you want to search by the address (more time consuming though.)
Try old city directories (some are on-line at Google Books.) Or, check the local library. If you find one on-line than you can search by address.
City directories were the pre-cursor to telephone books. They would list names, address, occupation. Some U.S. cities had directories as early as the late 1700's.
Try searching Google Books for the address (in quotes, i.e. "123 Main St") & the town name. There are tons of old books & many regard lawsuits, property transfers, genealogies, old newspaper articles. You may be surprised at what you can find.
Concrete foundation on the bottom and sides, with concrete pillars in two rows from front to back. They hold up two huge wooden beams which support the floor joists, and there is a diagonal wood sub-floor.
Since it's not sandstone, it's more likely early 1900s instead of 1800s.
Since it's not sandstone, it's more likely early 1900s instead of 1800s.
or... like everything else about old structures added on to, modified or rebuilt at some point.
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