Two copper sought from period restorers (1920s-40s) (hardwood floor, roof, vinyl)

[LilyLeftTheValley]

Both amateur and professional thoughts welcome.

We are mid-forties first time buyers specifically looking into buying a forever home. There are not many period homes for sale in Gardner, MA in the house and lot size range we're looking for that still have most of the original details intact.

I have read many bits and pieces both here and on other forums and sites regarding what to look for/look out for when buying such.

What I haven't found as much info about so far is when to do what restorations. I understand that if something is outright broken/missing, it has priority. Yet if, say, the essentials still work just fine, how did you decide what needed doing when? What sorts of things are really easier before you move in (like refinishing original hard wood floors), and which are more live around-able? I've read too many "we had no idea that..." stories, and I don't want to be one of them if we can help it. Another reason I am asking such now is because if there are things we should hop on right away, I want to include such in our overall house buying budget.

We have narrowed down to one estimated 1940s build, with a detached garage added in '52. I need to go record digging again to find the exact build year--the tax card is an estimate, but the kitchen is definitely close to 40s. (In case anyone wonders, we are not in a hot market, nor are we in one where this sort of house is much sought after due to the actual house footprint/lack of modern upgrades.) From memory, there seemed to be at most 2 families that ever lived in that home from the deed records I found. There are some minor cosmetic upgrades they did over time (more modern fixtures in a few rooms and layers of wall paint/paper and flooring), as well as vinyl siding, and a roof redo in 2010 (from the $4700 price listed on the tax card, it's likely only a straight re-shingle).

We like this one best (prior to inspection) partly because of what details it still has, size, and also the house to land ratio has a "just right" feel to it. It's also in a neighborhood that's easy walking distance to places we frequent (including the local old school lumberyard with hardware store as well.) The kitchen is mostly intact, bathroom also. The home currently has no kitchen appliances, so that's one thing I've been looking into already for budgeting reasons. (The home did just drop in price, so that helps the budget, and it's also why we're stepping up the process just in case.)

If it matters, we do not plan to build the house out or up. Most work would be concerning restoring the interior, not structural like knocking down any lathe and plaster walls. At some point we'd be getting rid of the vinyl siding for period siding, as well as bringing back the original exterior window casing/sill/cap/et al which was evidently removed when the siding was added in '11. Most work that isn't wiring/plumbing related will be done by ourselves. (Yes, we have experience despite this being our first home.) We do not have kids, and no family in the immediate area to worry about the house being company-ready. We do have a cat, but she's 19 and prefers sleeping and getting petted more than exploring places she shouldn't be. We are less than 1/3 of the way through a one year lease, so this isn't a "we have to move in soon because our lease is expiring" sort of thing.

If you have any questions or thoughts, please let me know them.

[Robino1]

I can't help you but just wanted to say I think the house is cute. If you do end up getting it and go through the restoration process, please keep us updated with pictures. It's always enjoyable to see how things progress.

Good luck!

[Brian_M]

As I think back through working on my own 1930's house, the Major things that comes to mind are...

Hardwood floors obviously, you really want this done before you move anything in. Problem is, you want all the Rest of your inside work done before the floors or you spend a TON of time trying to keep them from being damaged.

Plaster repair took a looooong time all by myself. I'm not talking about patching holes, I'm talking about keeping chunks of it from falling down. The keys (plaster that's forced through the lathe to keep it in place) tend to break off with movement (people walking in the attic for storage, electrical, alarm, etc...) and that causes droopy cracks and pieces that want to fall. It's not Difficult work, drill a hole, vacuum it out, spray in some primer, add glue then screw up till the glue cures (Home | Big Wally's Plaster Magic is what This Old House uses/recommends and it works a treat, touch expensive IMHO), remove the screws, fill in the holes and paint. I did 2,200sq/ft of ceilings by myself, it took a month (easily, if not more).

There was Ample water damage in one bathroom of my house, enough that I decided to gut it. Removing mud-pack tile (think 1" thick concrete on the walls, with chicken-wire backing/enforcement) was a HUGE undertaking. And if you DO remove plaster and lathe and plan to replace with drywall, the original trim won't sit flush to the wall without using firing strips. Oh, speaking of trim, when you pull it off take EXTREME care as you won't find anything that matches. I have a couple of rooms with wonky looking trim from the owners that lost the house to foreclosure (immediate prior owners) because they didn't know/think to save the original trim.

Generally, the rule is that "it" (whatever you're doing) will take 3 times longer than you think and cost 3 times as much as you initially "guess". I find that to be true, though my cost estimates are more accurate now, this is my 4th renovation. The hardest part is trying to repair something that's just a little damaged. I have 3 large tile patios, one of them had a few broken tiles... 3/4" thick 6x6 tiles that haven't been made in over half a century. It took me nearly a year to source 9 replacements that are just a Close match.

To really keep things in honor of the age of the home, you're going to spend more time and money on Every last thing. It's tiresome, but you're rewarded with a home that has character unlike the stuff made in the last 30~40 years. It's addictive to me, I like searching out items (as frustrating as it gets when you can't find them right away), or trying to come up with creative ways to keep things looking appropriate. Not for everyone and I'm *DANG* glad I practiced on 3 homes before this one, because the stuff I'm disgusted by now is probably better than what I was doing in my first home.

Good luck!

[exphysics teacher]

try the salvage yards. Old houses that are being demolished often find their interesting details taken to them. Lots of fun. I believe there is a large one in the Boston area

[LilyLeftTheValley]

Originally Posted by Robino1

I can't help you but just wanted to say I think the house is cute. If you do end up getting it and go through the restoration process, please keep us updated with pictures. It's always enjoyable to see how things progress.

Good luck!

Thank you for taking the time to be encouraging. I am planning on making a thread for such if all works out. I also like following folks' progress. (I've been reading hotzcatz's pink kitchen thread of late, as it's given me much to think about even though our climes are vastly different.)

Originally Posted by exphysics teacher

try the salvage yards. Old houses that are being demolished often find their interesting details taken to them. Lots of fun. I believe there is a large one in the Boston area

I will definitely look for that place. Thank you for mentioning it. Fortunately out here in western MA, there are an abundance of places and yard/estate sales to find goodies. Even Craig's List has yielded some good finds. There's also some "gut and add shiny trend" buyers that leave all sorts of wonderful at the curb. I've been quite lucky and happy in this regard since we've moved here.

Originally Posted by Brian_M

As I think back through working on my own 1930's house, the Major things that comes to mind are...{/snip}Good luck!

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I grew up in a multi family home my grandfather built across the street from where my grandmother grew up. Our family did all the maintenance work and additions ourselves there, getting the official ok's for code when needed. As a couple, our closest related experiences were two late 1800's buildings.

One was the stand alone office to an old mill that we renovated into a media studio. The only period bits left by the time we got there was the horribly rusted tin ceiling we found (and cried over as most of it disintegrated to the touch) above the dropped ceiling in one room (flat roof leaks), and the coal dust we had to deal with when we had to jack up a portion of the floor under one interior wall that had a terrible sag right above the old bin area. It still had many quirks that helped me learn a lot during the process. ("How is there still current in this line? We shut the main off!")

The other was an 1860 servant quarters that had been converted to a multi family that I property managed. I learned a lot of hard lessons in that one. My friend I managed it for bought it from a flipper. Although he is a dear friend, he was clueless about maintaining such an old home, and what the flippers hid came to light in time, mostly in the worst sorts of ways. *sighs* Yet I wouldn't trade the experience and knowledge I gained there for anything.

Most of it still had plaster walls; original interior doors and most trim but not floor molding; most original windows with later aluminum storm inserts; some knob wiring despite an upgrade to breakers/electrical; some original wood flooring; and, we found out too late (for our health)...lead paint. I learned about proper grading and drainage for fieldstone foundations on a sloped towards house property when trying to get rid of black mold in the walk out basement (with the original kitchen fireplace--baking nook as well!) . There were also issues inside the basement due to a bad modern re-mortar and seriously mis-guided spray insulation job to the interior (They painted OVER the insulation--I'm not kidding). Coal converted to oil boilers that were not as old as the home, but still quite old and needed coaxing more than once. It was also there that I lived through learning about why most vinyl siding jobs on historical homes can be a nightmare--especially if it's done over existing asbestos shingle over original wood siding. I'm also still shaking my head at the chimney guys he hired. I told them multiple times they shouldn't use modern mortar on our fireplaces, but did they listen? The work was already starting to show typical problems from such repairs before I left that job--less than a year later.

Originally Posted by Brian_M

Hardwood floors obviously, you really want this done before you move anything in. Problem is, you want all the Rest of your inside work done before the floors or you spend a TON of time trying to keep them from being damaged.

This is one of the things I've been considering is why it's good we still have so much time on our lease. I managed to find sold home listing photos of similar homes nearby to see what sorts of built ins are still present. You sort of get a feel for what the builder's budget was per what sorts of built ins are showing. In the first picture below, the wall wood and ceiling beam in the home we're considering line up perfectly for such a divider. From the flip side picture, you can see the old leaded glass cabinet doors in the lower parts.

Originally Posted by Brian_M

Plaster repair took a looooong time all by myself.

This is something I'm not looking forward to if needed, and I will be taking oodles of pictures when we have our private showing so my brain doesn't conveniently forget any potential big repairs like this. I know from experience (used to do rigging and other theatre stagecraft) how quickly tiring working up can be. One of the reasons we're arranging the showing asap is we realized that if we do find huge issues, we will stop worrying so much about losing the place due to the price drop, and instead will wait to see if it drops to the point where the repair cost can easily keep within a reasonable margin of our overall budget. The current drop took care of upgrading from fuses and buying appliances with plenty of room to breathe for flooring, painting and attention to the garage. I still have to price out the wood for the divider, but am waiting to do that until we get a really good look at the home. (I want to try to match the current beam wood if at all possible. I know our local yard has some decent old wood sources.)

Originally Posted by Brian_M

There was Ample water damage in one bathroom of my house, enough that I decided to gut it. Removing mud-pack tile (think 1" thick concrete on the walls, with chicken-wire backing/enforcement) was a HUGE undertaking. And if you DO remove plaster and lathe and plan to replace with drywall, the original trim won't sit flush to the wall without using firing strips.

One reason I am glad the basement isn't finished is I have a better chance of once over sussing out plumbing/rot from a view below. Plumbing is my weakest confidence area even though my previous work has proved sound. (Probably because I have more experience with electrical, finishes and wood working overall.) If there is need, this will likely be an area where I will hand this over wholescale to the pros for fear of breaking my streak. I have no intention at this time to replace anything with drywall if I can avoid it. If a mold/rot related gut is needed, it may point to the wisdom of blue boarding, but I'm going to wait until I have to consider such.

Somewhat related, my spouse also did extermination work before, so we'll have a chance of his spotting inside visitors before we even get to the paid inspection stage. So far, when we did an exterior walk around one day--after making sure it wasn't occupied--he didn't spot any obvious signs.

Originally Posted by Brian_M

Generally, the rule is that "it" (whatever you're doing) will take 3 times longer than you think and cost 3 times as much as you initially "guess". I find that to be true, though my cost estimates are more accurate now, this is my 4th renovation. The hardest part is trying to repair something that's just a little damaged.

We were pretty lucky with the studio with regards to cost (time, though...heck ya 3xs), less so with the multifamily. Although for some of that I blame the flippers going through crazy methods to hide things. (Lead paint on a bedroom floor? Let's put down 3/4 ply, then tar paper, then another sheet of 3/4 ply. No one will ever know! Yeah, until said floor has to be ripped up because a hoarder rented there and both layers of wood was wrecked beyond carpet and padding. )

Originally Posted by Brian_M

To really keep things in honor of the age of the home, you're going to spend more time and money on Every last thing. It's tiresome, but you're rewarded with a home that has character unlike the stuff made in the last 30~40 years. It's addictive to me, I like searching out items (as frustrating as it gets when you can't find them right away), or trying to come up with creative ways to keep things looking appropriate. Not for everyone and I'm *DANG* glad I practiced on 3 homes before this one, because the stuff I'm disgusted by now is probably better than what I was doing in my first home.

From what I recall from records, the home was owned by working class folks. So some of the period details normally restored just weren't in their budget in the original build. I am still a bit surprised at it having both the enclosed porch as well as the mudroom--I have not yet found records of when those were added, as the tax card doesn't say, so they may be original.

My biggest struggle is that in my heart, I want a humble craftsman bungalow, and the house is a humble cape. Because it's lacking in more decorative details (due to budget most likely), I also have had guilt issues over craftsman type details I want to add. I even wrote about this quandary on one preservation site I haunt. The gent who runs it was very kind in saying I wasn't acting with evil intent, and that we may very well attain the look we want. I still have that odd pang sometimes when I look at my sketchbook with the things I've considered.


You have definitely given me some things to consider more thoroughly if the showing yields more hope than despair.

[LilyLeftTheValley]

So we went to look at the home yesterday. I can't tell you how glad I am we did. Whomever took the photos for that home did it no justice whatsoever.

I had taken my cheap camera to take pictures of any issues. I wish I had guessed at what was there, because I would have brought a better one. Here's two of the many treasures we found: the first is in the 1/2 floor that also has original hardwood floor throughout (as the first floor has, even under carpets and such); the second is the opposite view of the front room. The door next to the china built in leads to a tiny porch that has newer windows installed to make it a 3 season.





One relief is that all of the windows except for the tiny porch are original and seem in fairly sound shape. They do have aluminum storms on the exterior side. The home even has the original seasonal wood storms in the basement windows. Even the kitchen was in better shape than the listing picture. Apparently there was a insert piece between the stove and wall of counter/cabinets though it's not in the list picture. When it's in place, that lack of doors on the end make perfect sense.

Speaking of windows, the weirdest thing we found was they had covered the thin side windows (can't think of the correct term) along the back door (into the mudroom) with siding on the outside! Only one pane of glass was missing out of both windows.

The bathroom, sadly, was...well... We're still struggling to identify the exact shade of plum the toilet and tub are. How bad is the bathroom? Try not to laugh too hard (and yes, they painted over the tile--didn't feel brave enough to scrape some off to see what color is below):


Needless to say, we went straight to the bank after. Just waiting on the mortgage agent (different office) to call my spouse today so we can get the letter sent to start the ball rolling. [The house even has what we're calling a secret passage between two rooms, even though it's a shared closet.)

[Bungalove]

Lily, are the tub and the toilet the original shades (color-wise)? That's a pretty rare color! I've seen one or two of the lavender ones but never a plum-colored one. I'm so envious. BTW, are you over at the District?

[LilyLeftTheValley]

Originally Posted by Bungalove

Lily, are the tub and the toilet the original shades (color-wise)? That's a pretty rare color! I've seen one or two of the lavender ones but never a plum-colored one. I'm so envious. BTW, are you over at the District?

I'm not sure if they are original or not. I wish I had taken a better camera that day. I did find some mid-century tile that calls the color lilac. I remember it as slightly deeper than the tile they show, and from a quick retrorenovation check, there is a "Wisteria" in the uppermost image of that article which is closer to the depth of color I recall than the typical lavender. If you click on the far left square of that row of colors, it will pop out to see. According to some of the articles about lavender baths overall, it's one of the rarer period colors. (Not as rare as T'ang Red/Rouge though!) Of the few lavs I've seen before this bathroom, it's always a slightly pinkier lavender (more along the Orchid shade I've seen in catalogs of the time.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "the District". Do you mean Washington D.C.? We're in Massachusetts.

[Bungalove]

Whatever the color is called, it's very cool! I almost put in an offer on a mid-century house because it had its' original purple tub, sink, and toilet - they were just gorgeous. No, the "District" is an old house web site full of really helpful information and having some of the best experts, nationwide, on old house restoration. I can PM you the web address if you're interested - they're a great bunch, and extremely helpful.

[Robino1]

Congratulations! Looks like you're on your way to a project soon