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Be aware that all ceilings have some amount of bowing, and will vary from spot to spot. We were told by a home inspector to use a 4 foot level and measure more than one spot.
That doesn’t apply in this case- we are looking at a specific area due to a butchered joist. Oh, and that inspector didn’t really know what he’s talking about! There a slight “ridges” all over a large ceiling due to drywall seams- a string line or laser level would be better “tools” to determine if a ceiling is sagging/bowing.
Haven't read all the posts yet, only the first few, but it appears to me from the photos that the trap is AFTER the "accordion" piece that they installed. I would guess that they installed the accordion piece just because it was easier to install (more flexible) than hard PVC pipe.
In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt anything to put 2 or 3 90* degree pieces (as needed) into the drain line as long as it's BEFORE the trap.
I haven't read yet the discussion about the joists being adequate or inadequate, but if they've cut only one joist to make the existing connections, then likely that would be no problem. As someone said, it's amazing how much plumbers cut up perfectly good joists in order to install their plumbing pipes.
I would say that this is evidence of the OVERDESIGN (safety factor) built into the standard sizing and spacing of floor joists. Stated another way, the standard design of 2x10's on 16" centers will hold WAY more load than it will likely ever need to hold.
Mmm... the floor joists are nominal 2 x 8, not 2 x 10. KB is on track (as usual) in being concerned. If a tub holds 50 gallons of water at 8 lbs per gallon, that is 400 lbs of water alone in a small area that can be subject to moisture and the degradation of framing members. (Areas of rot around a toilet or shower pan are common problems.) A lot of figuring out the strength of a floor joist system relates to how long the span is and where the load is placed on the span. Had the centering been 12" OC or the joists 2 x 10, as you thought, the concern would be less, but still enough to check into.
2x8s on a long span are (pardon the pun) a stretch. My manufactured home has 2x8s 16 OC, but those are supported by steel beams and pillars, and only have spans of less than 6'. A span of 12' in an average room of the era is a lot different.
That doesn’t apply in this case- we are looking at a specific area due to a butchered joist. Oh, and that inspector didn’t really know what he’s talking about! There a slight “ridges” all over a large ceiling due to drywall seams- a string line or laser level would be better “tools” to determine if a ceiling is sagging/bowing.
At the time, laser levels weren't common for average people, and it's tough to do a string on a 12 foot ceiling. The inspector was looking at a townhouse we had bought new that had a few issues that the builder had not worked out before we had to close. The inspector pointed out the drywall seams making the ceiling uneven, and that since engineered truss type beams had been used in place of 2x8/10/12 joists, there could be some amount of flex that was different than what we were used to. The key thing he said was that most of our concerns were from high expectations, and we had received what we had paid for, "this is what you get at this price point. It meets code, is structurally sound, but isn't going to have perfectly flat ceilings".
Haven't read all the posts yet, only the first few, but it appears to me from the photos that the trap is AFTER the "accordion" piece that they installed. I would guess that they installed the accordion piece just because it was easier to install (more flexible) than hard PVC pipe.
In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt anything to put 2 or 3 90* degree pieces (as needed) into the drain line as long as it's BEFORE the trap.
The issue is the accordion type line created another “trap” inside the notch that was cut into the joist- hence, the most likely reason for stopping up/slow drainage. The problem with adding several 90’s is it slows the flow and creates points of clogging. There is a very easy solution to this problem- we just haven’t gotten there yet- determining what the joist is going to require for repair is a little more important.
I haven't read yet the discussion about the joists being adequate or inadequate, but if they'veal cut only one joist to make the existing connections, then likely that would be no problem. As someone said, it's amazing how much plumbers cut up perfectly good joists in order to install their plumbing pipes.
What you meant to say is- it’s amazing how stupid and inept framers can be when laying out joists- plans are clearly marked where tubs and plumbing will be. But, equally as stupid is plumbers that just go ahead and hack/butcher a joist because they don’t want to stop the job, wait for a superintendent to look and coordinate getting the framers back to correct and/or modify the framing. Also, according to the OP this is a 2X8 joist and it’s been cut/notched more than 50% of its depth. The other issue here- this is probably not the original tub, and/or not the original location, so no consideration was given to the plumbing. “ Just throw it in there and slap some pipes on it! Don’t give a damn about the framing- we flippin’ this thing!!!”
Sorry it took me a while to return and post- it's been a busy week at work!
Based on the brochure that K'ledgeBldr kindly provided, it seems that even if they notched into one of the 'end 1/3rds' of the entire span (i.e. instead of the no-go-zone of the middle third), they still cut way too deep. So, bottom line, I think I'd want to get it reinforced, regardless.
To make things more interesting, I wasn't noticing it earlier (it's really hard to see stuff down there, unless I use my smartphone camera as a sort of mirroring device) but the main waste pipe actually circles back around in the same joist (!), and they made yet another 'notch' just a few inches away from the one I mentioned previously (although this one isn't quite as egregious since they only went over the recommended 1.25" depth max by .75" for a nominal 8" joist). I'll attach pics so you can see it. I can only imagine what other hidden plumbing fixes might be lurking in places which I can't even get to. Luckily, I don't see any sign of 'bowing' in the living room ceiling below, but I'll need to get one of those laser levelers to know for sure.
Not 100% sure, but based on sticking my smartphone down there at different angles, it seems that the notching might be at the end (1/3) of a longer spanning joist: I was able to take one pic looking at where the joist meets the wall (corner stop), and then a separate one going the opposite way, where the piece of wood extends a fairly long distance.
With all that said, I've watched some YouTube videos that suggest you can mitigate the pressure(s) on the joist by a) 'sistering' (but would likely entail ripping up living room ceiling etc. across a wide span)- this seems to lend itself to a house still under construction, or if you have a crawl-space under your bathroom, rather than an actual living space like mine; I dread the thought of this, as any homeowner might b) using one of those steel plate 'joist repair kits' (not sure how I'd get a standard drill into that tight space as well as being able to see what I'm drilling into, but perhaps I could figure it out, if it is even a feasible solution) c) some guy on YouTube demonstrating a butcher job even worse than mine, suggested that you could cut a block of wood to size (snug fit) as a plug in the notch (and then fill with epoxy), relieving pressure on the top and bottom of the joist. But I have no idea if solutions 'b' and 'c' are legit easy fixes. Would love to get your thoughts on that!
Getting back to the p-trap solution: I'm dying of curiosity to know the fix (although obviously I need to fix the whole joist issue first). This is the only thing I could think of:
I'm imagining the way a kitchen sink drain is designed when it has a garbage disposal attached. So, my thought is, have the p-trap set directly below the actual tub drain, so the force of the water is going right into the p-trap without any bending...but then have the down pipe from the bathtub drain into the p-trap be one of those t-shape connector pipes so it can connect with the overflow drain in the opposite direction (connecting a little higher than the start of the p-trap itself). Since the overflow drain isn't used (assuming norm), it wouldn't have to worry about issue of gunk build-up, therefore, I'd be able to use a couple of 90-degree elbows to get it past the hopefully soon-to-be fixed butchered joist to connect with the t-elbow that connects the bathtub drain to the p-trap. Am I making sense or is this a bad idea???
As always, any guidance or advice would be greatly appreciated- this has already been more info than I could have ever hoped for to at least give me an idea of what I'm dealing with! Thanks, again!
PS. I'm curious- is the brass pipe that they cut out the smaller notch for the vent pipe? That would make sense to me since it's going upward from the other connecting drain pipes. I'm assuming the long drain pipe connects with my sink vanity drain and then starts to go down from there, ultimately connecting with my downstairs bathroom. Ugh- I wish I could see through the walls...although maybe it's better that I can't. hahahaha
Last edited by Dragonflame; 10-22-2022 at 02:27 PM..
Just wanted to check in- I realize my last response was super long, so am hoping to summarize here. Would appreciate any advice on the following (hopefully K'Ledge Bldr might still be available to respond- seems to have a lot of insight!):
- Given the nature of my 'butchered joist' situation, is it possible to use one of those 'joist repair' kits with the metal plates? Looks like that would be the easiest/cheapest solution, but I don't want to bother if it's not going to truly fix it.
- As an alternative, another YouTube 'fix-it' guy suggested that a wood chunk cut to snugly fit into the hole could be used, with some sort of epoxy to keep it in place, taking pressure off of the joist. Sounds almost too good to be true, but I don't know enough to know what's crazy vs. plausible when it comes to solutions.
For the p-trap drain re-design, would this work:
Have the p-trap set directly below the actual tub drain, so the force of the water is going right into the p-trap without any bending...but then have the down pipe from the bathtub drain into the p-trap be one of those t-shape connector pipes so it can connect with the overflow drain in the opposite direction (connecting a little higher than the start of the p-trap itself). Since the overflow drain isn't used (assuming norm), it wouldn't have to worry about issue of gunk build-up, therefore, I'd be able to use a couple of 90-degree elbows to get it past the hopefully soon-to-be fixed butchered joist to connect with the t-elbow that connects the bathtub drain to the p-trap. Am I making sense or is this a bad idea???
The block/epoxy idea is a no-go. It would never pass any inspection, and it "might" work or "might" not.
Opening up a ceiling is the way I would go. A ceiling is not structural, the subfloor is. Patching a ceiling is similar to patching a sheetrock wall. Be precise in opening it up, joint the patch at the joists, mud, wet wipe, paint, and done.
With the ceiling opened just between the two joists (poke a hole from topside with a nail), you can more easily sister or scab as needed from a small stepladder or platform, and do the plumbing with far less cursing.
Rather than go into detail on the drain situation, I'll just direct you to do an image search of "bathtub drain schematic." You'll find a few ways to accomplish your task within code once you have your joist situation understood and can correct it while giving room for the drain.
The block/epoxy idea is a no-go. It would never pass any inspection, and it "might" work or "might" not.
Opening up a ceiling is the way I would go. A ceiling is not structural, the subfloor is. Patching a ceiling is similar to patching a sheetrock wall. Be precise in opening it up, joint the patch at the joists, mud, wet wipe, paint, and done.
With the ceiling opened just between the two joists (poke a hole from topside with a nail), you can more easily sister or scab as needed from a small stepladder or platform, and do the plumbing with far less cursing.
Rather than go into detail on the drain situation, I'll just direct you to do an image search of "bathtub drain schematic." You'll find a few ways to accomplish your task within code once you have your joist situation understood and can correct it while giving room for the drain.
Thanks so much for the quick response, Harry!
Yeah...I think if it were just one item I had to deal with, and I had all the supplies at hand already, I'd try a DIY. I have some experience with 2 out of the 3 tasks (patching a wall and a bit of irrigation fixing), but the 'sistering' stuff is completely new to me. Now that I have a better idea of what needs to be done, I'll probably just hire someone to fix it. It stinks because I do like fixing things but my job has me swamped right now, even on weekends. I'd have to watch a bunch of YouTube videos to be able to make an attempt at the 'sistering' (it doesn't look too complicated, but at the same time, I don't want to screw it up).
PS. Would a single contractor (e.g. a plumber, assuming an ethical one) be able to handle this on their own? Or would this be one contractor to do the 'sistering' (carpenter? framer?) and a separate one for the 'plumbing' aspect?
I would suspect most anyone in the related trades could do the job. However...
This is a case where you are best off detailing in writing (briefly) what you expect and how it is done. Example:
Repair and replace tub drainage to current code and have inspected and approved.
Sister joist to regain structural integrity and have inspected and approved.
Suggested method of sistering to include 4' of 1" x 8" clear stock, construction adhesive along the entire length of the repair between sister and joist, a minimum of 10 1/2" bolts with washers and nuts to further secure the repair.
Ceiling to be patched and painted to match existing ceiling.
That said, KB will likely have a better set of directions and ways to insure it is done properly. If so, I bow to his judgment.
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