Prop B - Firefighter Pay Parity (Houston: credit, buyers, schools)

[snackdog]

As a general rule, it is best to vote NO on all propositions. Our elected officials and city administrators are paid to manage the city. Anything that ends up going to a vote for money directly from voters is going to be decided based on advertising. Don't fall for it. Always vote no on all propositions.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by snackdog

As a general rule, it is best to vote NO on all propositions. Our elected officials and city administrators are paid to manage the city. Anything that ends up going to a vote for money directly from voters is going to be decided based on advertising. Don't fall for it. Always vote no on all propositions.

That's a bad way to look at the issue. Some propositions are are required by law, and can't proceed without voter approval.

[gsmj]

For those against the measure, please understand I'm not replying to try and argue, debate, or even try to persuade you to change your mind. I just want to offer my perspective on the issue.

Originally Posted by txdemo

I like firefighters but adding $100 million to the budget is unsustainable.

In theory I agree with you. However, the very two parties who are actively arguing this point, the Houston Police Officer's Union and Mayor Turner just agreed to another pay-raise for HPD that was revealed to cost nearly the same amount. It was on the local news about two weeks ago, Channel 2 I believe.

Originally Posted by K LoLo

For this, does this mean the FF's no longer have a pension? Or is it that their pension is still accruing, but has not yet been funded? IE, did they really "take the pension" or is it just something the city doesn't have the assets to fund?

When the mayor race was going on, I thought we shouldn't pretend like the pension was going to be sustainable from the start. But the mayor said he wouldn't touch it right? That's why I'm on the fence on this issue. If they said they'd do something, they should.

Correct, this Mayor gave his public assurance to the Firefighters Union that he was not going to touch their pension. Their fear was that at some point in the future the city was going to eventually win at the state legislature level with regaining the power to manipulate their pension. To prevent this they backed and actively campaigned for Mayor Turner over Bill King due to Mayor Turners continued promise to them that had gone back 20 years when he was a state legislature.

Unfortunately for the Firefighters though, Mayor Turner went back on his word and the end result was that because the Police and Municipal Workers pensions were each so much more severely underfunded that the bulk of the repayment to all three combined pension funds came from the Firefighters fund.

So yes, they still have a pension, but their benefits from it have been reduced.

Originally Posted by K LoLo

Also, is the FF raise supposed to be all in one lump sum? And not necessarily in portions?

The Firefighters Union has stated that they would be willing to take the raise over three years. The president of their union has stated as much in more than one interview.

Originally Posted by txdemo

I vaguely remember hearing (or reading) that firefighters in Houston aren't paid on par with firefighters of other cities of similar size. And, that the City offered to bring them on par with those firefighters but they insisted on being paid as much as police. I can't find anything mentioning that but I know I got it from somewhere.

Originally Posted by WRM20

HFD unions haven't ever been willing to negotiate, sitting on their high horse and proclaiming their superiority. We could probably cut the number of fire trucks in half, and still have adequate coverage, the majority of calls for service are EMS related.

The Firefighters Union has actually been trying to negotiate with both this and the last mayor with no success. I agree that there should be the expectation of compromise when negotiating, but if you look at it from their perspective, they've been asked to give up pension benefits by the last two mayors as concessions in return for smaller raises that don't make for those concessions. Meanwhile their counterparts at HPD had to make no such deals as they long ago made the deal to allow the city to defer payments in lieu for multiple pay raises over the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by Mandres

Salary should be based on market rates, exemplified by how difficult it is to fill openings. No problems hiring new firefighters? Then the salary is fine.

And if it's not, then the recourse is to work with the City administration to solve the problem. Not to go over your boss's head to the voters to try to force your way through political pressure. That's how the City got into such a pension mess in the first place. I sincerely hope that if this passes that the entire department is gutted. The financial management of an operation this size has to be in the hands of professionals, not self-interested unions...

if I were a City Councilman and Prob B passes, I would clean house top-to-bottom at the HFD. You want to flex and go around the system crying to the public? Then you're getting replaced, down the very last man and woman. That union has had way too much power for way to long. The executives need to put a stop to it.

The irony in your assumption is that the Firefighters union has any power at all. The very fact they had to go directly to the voter shows how little ability to influence the decisions of city leaders they actually have.

Again, to each of you, vote how you feel is best for your city. After much reading and listening, it's my opinion that the firefighters feel like they have been backed into a corner with no other option but to take above their city leaders and directly to voter, and was in no-way meant to be a power-play money grab from the citizens and city of Houston.

[afterdark80]

All you have to understand is that if the useless Mayor of Houston is paying for and taking out television ads AGAINST PROP B, there is something personal and more to the story.
Maybe Turner demanded and didn't get a kickback from Local 341?
Maybe he doesn't want to be forced to fire useless City employees, like his worthless press secretary Darian Ward, employed by Turner, but simply getting paid by the City to sit around and work on other interests.
Maybe he's porked up the City's departments with more of his useless cronies like Darian Ward, who do nothing but foster corruption; and maybe this increased expense in firefighter pay eliminates money in other areas of the budget where he would normally fund these corrupt projects.
Water will continue to flow.
Police will not get fired.
Parks will not be sold.


Turner will simply not be able to enrich himself as he would like.


VOTE YES PROP B

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Prop B has passed! Screw Mayor Turner.

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow

Prop B has passed! Screw Mayor Turner.

More a case of firefighters screwing the taxpayers. Time to implement the 5/40 schedule and put an end to those lucrative extra jobs, so that firefighters net income actually goes down.

[hbcu]

that's a slippery slope

folks who struggled to become a firefighter historically will say they deserve it and their lives are on the line. Now it seems like the people who did not support Prop B are now talking about it publicly but its too late now.

[Mandres]

Then the next reasonable course of action is layoffs, in my opinion. I hope the city holds firm to the adopted budget for the Fire Dept. If the rate of pay goes up, then the number of available positions must go down.

If the City administration allows unions to force their way at the ballot box with no negative consequences then it'll happen over and over again.

[shanv3]

How about taxing the mega churches and raise some funds?

Or making non-citizens pay for the free services they receive?

[Mr. Krinkle]

Originally Posted by shanv3

How about taxing the mega churches and raise some funds?

Or making non-citizens pay for the free services they receive?

Can you expand on this one please?