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Old 09-02-2015, 03:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
'best poetry' ???
Per the Quran, Muhammad did not have high regard for poets and poetry. That was because the poets of the day wrote poems to mock Muhammad's claims of prophethood and it is most likely he knew he was guilty.
What is praised is its arrangement for reading as a hymn [mentally and psychologically soothing].

Yes C14 can be wrong. Let's await the final confirmation.

If the Birmingham is confirmed to be before 610AD and long before than, then it prove that the current claim that the Quran was directly from God through Gabriel and recited by Muhammad was false.
I think this is most likely given the following circumstances;

1. It is impossible for God to exists, there was no God whispering to Gabriel and onto Muhammad, thus no such God initiated Quran.

2. Ever since humans emerged on Earth there has always been a very small percentile of humans who had experiences of altered states of consciousness. Many of these claims to have relations with the supernatural and God. Many become shamans and later cult leaders and religious founders.

3. If there is a Muhammad who recited a Quran, then he was one of those in 2 above. Muhammad's altered state experiences are recorded in the Quran, Sira, Hadiths and elsewhere. In such a case the Quran was never from God [impossibility re 1 above] but rather from a man who had a personal interest to express his altered states.

4. Even since 2,000 years ago those in 3 and who are spiritual and religious inclined were "blogging" the experiences and views. So it is no surprised there were religious writings which were like those to the Quran long prior to 610 AD.
The Torah and Bible predicted the coming of the Messiah and there would have been many who hope to claim to be the Messiah. Muhammad could have been one of them and he could have access to the many writings available during his days.

5. The other alternative of how the Quran came about is the Quran was compiled as a holy book of a new religion by a group of leaders to unite and CONTROL a already conquered and expanding empire. Theistic religion using God as the ultimate controller is the most effective and have been used ever since till the present.

One thing that I am very certain is '100% certainty God do not exist' thus the Quran [whichever way it came about] cannot be from a non-existing God.
However if one were to study deeply into the psychological reasons for theism, it is most likely God was invented as a ideal and balm to deal with the inherent existential dilemma and it terrible pains.

Well, I am an atheist -as LI knows very well, and we respect each others' right to believe or not. My reasons for that are really the same ones I don't believe in Christianity or Judaism - and that takes Islam down the chute along with the Mormons.

So arguing about what is in the Quran isn't what I do, though I will consider the 'science in the Quran' claims (which I see you are dealing with - and the usual "Explanations" of your points - appeal to metaphor and faith - are worthless) but the fresh water through salt and the 'Fly's wing' are so searingly wrong that further discussion seems pointless.

I know that there are claims that the language of the Quran is so wonderful that it has to be God -given. I have heard Muslim atheists (there are some, hiding out ) say frankly that -to them - it is just very old language. LI says that he has tried to compose in Quranic, but the results were not pleasing. I read that trained poets were common in old Arabia and poetry was highly appreciated, so I can suggest that, when the Quran was codified in Ummayad times, they used their best poets.

I may doubt the claims of oral tradition and odd lines written on bits of wood, but I can't prove it. I can demonstrate that it is not divine knowledge since the science in the Quran is simply wrong.

That said, LI's point about the writing being a later script that cannot be of the C14 date does mean either that the C14 date is wrong and such errors would tend to make the object younger rather than older. Or the pages are old but the writing is a century or so later.

I suspect that the savants will come to the same conclusion when they ask Muslims about it rather than leaping up and down shouting 'Muhammad never existed!"
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Old 09-03-2015, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Why the Quran was not poetic oriented.
36:69. And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it [poetry] meet [appropriate] for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain,
36:70. To warn whosoever liveth, and that the word may be fulfilled against the disbelievers [infidels].

69:41. It is not poet's speech little is it that ye [infidels] believe!

If any Muslim were to claim the Quran is poetic then they are contradicting God's word, and that would be a sin.
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Old 09-03-2015, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why the Quran was not poetic oriented.
36:69. And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it [poetry] meet [appropriate] for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain,
36:70. To warn whosoever liveth, and that the word may be fulfilled against the disbelievers [infidels].

69:41. It is not poet's speech little is it that ye [infidels] believe!

If any Muslim were to claim the Quran is poetic then they are contradicting God's word, and that would be a sin.
Might be a good time to mention the Muslim concept of sin.

There are 5 levels of responsibility

1. That which is required to do. Deliberate refusal to do so will result in punishment.

2. That which is desired to do, but not required. to do will bring rewards, but there is no punishment for not doing

3. Neutral-- no punishment or rewards for doing or not doing

4. Discouraged-- No punishment if done, but will be rewarded for not doing

5. Forbidden--If deliberately done there will be punishment

Very few things in life will come under the categories of 1 or 5

The only things I am aware that are number 1 are the 5 Pillars of faith

Life has many more opportunities to gain rewards than to be punished for.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:25 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,639,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Might be a good time to mention the Muslim concept of sin.

There are 5 levels of responsibility

1. That which is required to do. Deliberate refusal to do so will result in punishment.

2. That which is desired to do, but not required. to do will bring rewards, but there is no punishment for not doing

3. Neutral-- no punishment or rewards for doing or not doing

4. Discouraged-- No punishment if done, but will be rewarded for not doing

5. Forbidden--If deliberately done there will be punishment

Very few things in life will come under the categories of 1 or 5

The only things I am aware that are number 1 are the 5 Pillars of faith

Life has many more opportunities to gain rewards than to be punished for.
Hadeeth also states that
if you intend to do a sin but arent able to comit it - there is no punishment.
If you intend to do a good deed but arent able to do it - there is a reward for it.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Hadeeth also states that
if you intend to do a sin but arent able to comit it - there is no punishment.
If you intend to do a good deed but arent able to do it - there is a reward for it.
Note there are many similar verses like the following;
100:10. And the secrets of the breasts are made known.
100:11. On that day will their [infidels] Lord be perfectly informed concerning them.

All intentions are recorded in the Book and taken into account.
There is a difference between 1 intention and 1,000,000 times the sin or good deed thought in the 'breasts.'
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Secure, Undisclosed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Except yhe Script used did not exist until after 610 and had evolved into Kufic script by 650. This is a transitional script showing the change from Hijasi to Kufic. Most likely existing only afew years after 610 and before 645 It can be considered as either very late Hijazi or very Early Kufic. When I first saw it I thought it was Kufic


See this Thread:

Koran excerpt older than Mohammed
So, I'm as dumb as a box of rocks about all of this, but let me take a shot anyway. (It's Saturday. It's late. She-who-must-be-obeyed has already gone to bed, and I'm about five minutes behind her. But what the heck.)

There is a writing that Woodrow can trace to a particular forty year period... (And Woodrow has proven himself to be a very diligent, very informed scholar about Arabic and Islamic writings.)

About twenty-two years of which the Prophet Muhammad was alive and preaching...

And there is copious evidence that those who followed Prophet Muhammad wrote down what he said, both contemporaneously and subsequently...

So shouldn't the validity of U-Birmingham's claim be judged in the substance of the text, as opposed to the mere C-14 date of the ink? If it turned out to be a contemporaneous recordation of the Prophet Mohammad's words, made circa 610-632 CE, what the heck are we arguing about?

Just sayin'...
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Might be a good time to mention the Muslim concept of sin.

There are 5 levels of responsibility
1. That which is required to do. Deliberate refusal to do so will result in punishment.
2. That which is desired to do, but not required. to do will bring rewards, but there is no punishment for not doing
3. Neutral-- no punishment or rewards for doing or not doing
4. Discouraged-- No punishment if done, but will be rewarded for not doing
5. Forbidden--If deliberately done there will be punishment

Very few things in life will come under the categories of 1 or 5

The only things I am aware that are number 1 are the 5 Pillars of faith

Life has many more opportunities to gain rewards than to be punished for.
I understand there are 5 types of sins, i.e.
1) Dhanb/kaba’ir 2) Ithm 3) Khati’ah 4) Jurm 5) Junah/Haraj.

The greatest unforgivable sin re Dhanb/kaba’ir is the ascribing of partners to Allah.
This is not applicable to a Muslims as by default a Muslim is one who do not ascribe partners/gods/rivals/idols to Allah.

As for other great sins, e.g. homosexuality, unless on repent, one is regards as a renegade, i.e. apostate thus subject to torture like any infidel.

As for other minor sins, there is provision for one to repent and ask for forgiveness.

This principle is a bad practice of morality because one can always commit evil then ask for forgiveness as stipulated in the Quran. Who is to say a serial evil doer is wrong if he keep repenting and asking for forgiveness after each sinful act.

Quote:
Life has many more opportunities to gain rewards than to be punished for.
You are not in touched with the ugliness of Islam when viewed in the perspective of humanity where Allah mind the business of other religions.

The problem is when such attitude of 'hatreds' and abhorrence of Allah are imbued into the psyche of SOME [20% = 300 million] Muslims which manifest as real terrible acts of evils and violence set upon non-Muslims. This 20% of Muslims perceived they will be 'rewarded' if they exercise the same abhorrence like Allah's abhorrence towards non-Muslims, e.g.

Here are some verses re Allah's abhorrence on the infidels, kuffar, kafir, kafara; [mine]
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!

34:45. Those [of old] before them [Quraish infidels] denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they [Quraish infidels] denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them)!

35:26. Then seized I [Allah] those [infidels] who disbelieved, and how intense was My abhorrence!

35:39. He [Allah] it is who hath made you regents in the earth; so he [the infidel] who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their [infidels'] disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss.

40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
So, I'm as dumb as a box of rocks about all of this, but let me take a shot anyway. (It's Saturday. It's late. She-who-must-be-obeyed has already gone to bed, and I'm about five minutes behind her. But what the heck.)

There is a writing that Woodrow can trace to a particular forty year period... (And Woodrow has proven himself to be a very diligent, very informed scholar about Arabic and Islamic writings.)

About twenty-two years of which the Prophet Muhammad was alive and preaching...

And there is copious evidence that those who followed Prophet Muhammad wrote down what he said, both contemporaneously and subsequently...

So shouldn't the validity of U-Birmingham's claim be judged in the substance of the text, as opposed to the mere C-14 date of the ink? If it turned out to be a contemporaneous recordation of the Prophet Mohammad's words, made circa 610-632 CE, what the heck are we arguing about?

Just sayin'...
You take Woodrow as an authority merely on his personal claim??
Are you familiar with Woodrow "Innoculation Theory" [Mcquire]?

There are many objective competing theories [not subjective convictions by believers] out there.
Suggest you do a literature review on all of them.
The C-14 if proven objectively true can give greater weight to the relevant views and reinforce their objectivity. Theistic believers views are
NEVER grounded on objectivity but ultimately influenced and tilted toward Faith [belief without reason nor proofs].
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand there are 5 types of sins, i.e.
1) Dhanb/kaba’ir 2) Ithm 3) Khati’ah 4) Jurm 5) Junah/Haraj.

The greatest unforgivable sin re Dhanb/kaba’ir is the ascribing of partners to Allah.
This is not applicable to a Muslims as by default a Muslim is one who do not ascribe partners/gods/rivals/idols to Allah.

As for other great sins, e.g. homosexuality, unless on repent, one is regards as a renegade, i.e. apostate thus subject to torture like any infidel.

As for other minor sins, there is provision for one to repent and ask for forgiveness.

This principle is a bad practice of morality because one can always commit evil then ask for forgiveness as stipulated in the Quran. Who is to say a serial evil doer is wrong if he keep repenting and asking for forgiveness after each sinful act.


You are not in touched with the ugliness of Islam when viewed in the perspective of humanity where Allah mind the business of other religions.

The problem is when such attitude of 'hatreds' and abhorrence of Allah are imbued into the psyche of SOME [20% = 300 million] Muslims which manifest as real terrible acts of evils and violence set upon non-Muslims. This 20% of Muslims perceived they will be 'rewarded' if they exercise the same abhorrence like Allah's abhorrence towards non-Muslims, e.g.

Here are some verses re Allah's abhorrence on the infidels, kuffar, kafir, kafara; [mine]
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!

34:45. Those [of old] before them [Quraish infidels] denied, and these have not attained a tithe of that which We bestowed on them (of old); yet they [Quraish infidels] denied My messengers. How intense then was My abhorrence (of them)!

35:26. Then seized I [Allah] those [infidels] who disbelieved, and how intense was My abhorrence!

35:39. He [Allah] it is who hath made you regents in the earth; so he [the infidel] who disbelieveth, his disbelief be on his own head. Their [infidels'] disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers, in their Lord's sight, naught save abhorrence. Their disbelief increaseth for the disbelievers naught save loss.

40:10. Lo! (on that day) those [infidels] who disbelieve are informed by proclamation: Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your abhorrence one of another, when ye [infidels] were called unto the faith but did refuse.
Point being missed is all people (Muslims included) will be punished for our sins. We are not going to escape paying for the harm we have done in this lifetime. We can only strive to offset our evil acts with good and repent sincerely by making restitution for the harm we have done. Then put our self at the mercy of Allaah(swt) on Judgement day and have sabr that one day we will enter Jannah even if we first spend eons in Hellfire.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Point being missed is all people (Muslims included) will be punished for our sins. We are not going to escape paying for the harm we have done in this lifetime. We can only strive to offset our evil acts with good and repent sincerely by making restitution for the harm we have done. Then put our self at the mercy of Allaah(swt) on Judgement day and have sabr that one day we will enter Jannah even if we first spend eons in Hellfire.
I noted there are more than 110++ instances of the concept of "punishment" in the verses of the Quran. So it is not likely to be missed by most Muslims and others who read the Quran seriously.

In many cases "reward" in the Quran also meant negatively as a punishment.
A Muslim or infidel is rewarded for what one earned on Earth, if one is good one is rewarded positively and correspondingly if one is 'rewarded' negatively for evil deeds.
Here is an example of 'reward' in the negative sense, repeated many times elsewhere.

2:191. And slay [wa qtulouhum] them [infidels] wherever ye find them, and drive them [infidels] out of the places whence they [infidels] drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.
And fight not with them [infidels] at the Inviolable Place of Worship [Ka'aba] until they [infidels] first attack you there, but if they [infidels] attack you (there) then slay them [infidels].
Such is the reward of disbelievers [infidels].
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