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Old 03-08-2016, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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With reference to the summary of each verse I have personally done above [not copied from somewhere], one will note Chapter 3 is a mixed of various elements that are not associated with any linked context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What does befriending Jews and Chrstians means? What is the extent of this "befriending"? When does friendship begin from just acquaintancship? How far can it go before it is not just befrieding but much more than befriending? All these questions have to be answered to understand what is meant by befriending Jews and Christians. In case of regarding someone as "wali", it is not only befriending but more than just befriending. You are relying on the person to protect you, you rely on him and expect to guard your interests too.
V 3:28 and 3:118 imply two categories of friendship.
This has to be taken within the whole context of the Quran where infidels are condemned as not to trusted and thus viewed with apprehension and aloofness.
You can read within Chapter 3 itself and note how infidels are condemned like a piece of sh:t; there are negative attitude toward infidels in almost all chapters. In some chapters the condemnations of infidels are terribly evil.

Quote:
The verse should be seen in that light due to the context (immediately before the Meccan attack on Madina which resulted in battle at Uhad).
If you review chapter 3 you will note it is a mixed of advice on various elements which are independent.
The Battle of Badr and Uhod were alluded in Chapter 3 but they are not related to 3:28, 3:100 and 3:118 in context.
3:28, 3:100 and 3:118 has to be taken within the whole context of the Quran where infidels are condemned as not to trusted and thus viewed with apprehension and aloofness.

Quote:
The verse does not say "friends" or even "intimate friends" but "intimacy" in terms of revealing your secrets in a situation of war (Uhad at th time). Therefore, it should read: .."take not into intimacy others than your own people" (during war time)...
You are twisting Allah's words here.
The majority of the 40++ English translations refer to intimate friends or bosom friends, close friend etc.


It is also very clear if we translate the Arabic word for word, i.e.
3:118 O you who believe[d]! (Do) not take (as) intimates other than yourselves, not they will spare you (any) ruin. They wish what distresses you. Indeed, (has become) apparent the hatred from their mouths, and what conceals their breasts (is) greater. Certainly We made clear for you the Verses, if you were (to use) reason.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-08-2016 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 03-08-2016, 03:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
With reference to the summary of each verse I have personally done above [not copied from somewhere], one will note Chapter 3 is a mixed of various elements that are not associated with any linked context.

V 3:28 and 3:118 imply two categories of friendship.
This has to be taken within the whole context of the Quran where infidels are condemned as not to trusted and thus viewed with apprehension and aloofness.
Not at all!
The Qur'anic context is explained in 60:8-9. The context in chapter 3 is one of war time. It is not just about unbelievers (infidels) but hypocrites and people of the book too. If you research as to what happened before Badr and certainly Uhad, you would see the context of the verses in this chapter.

Quote:
If you review chapter 3 you will note it is a mixed of advice on various elements which are independent.
The Battle of Badr and Uhod were alluded in Chapter 3 but they are not related to 3:28, 3:100 and 3:118 in context.
3:28, 3:100 and 3:118 has to be taken within the whole context of the Quran where infidels are condemned as not to trusted and thus viewed with apprehension and aloofness.
Study this chapter again after doing research as to why the advice and everything else in this chapter. It is not the whole Qur'an context which is in 60:8-9.

Quote:
You are twisting Allah's words here.
The majority of the 40++ English translations refer to intimate friends or bosom friends, close friend etc.

It is also very clear if we translate the Arabic word for word, i.e.
3:118 O you who believe[d]! (Do) not take (as) intimates other than yourselves, not they will spare you (any) ruin. They wish what distresses you. Indeed, (has become) apparent the hatred from their mouths, and what conceals their breasts (is) greater. Certainly We made clear for you the Verses, if you were (to use) reason.
Intimates are those who were made aware of secrets about preparations for defence of Madina.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Not at all!
The Qur'anic context is explained in 60:8-9. The context in chapter 3 is one of war time. It is not just about unbelievers (infidels) but hypocrites and people of the book too. If you research as to what happened before Badr and certainly Uhad, you would see the context of the verses in this chapter.

Study this chapter again after doing research as to why the advice and everything else in this chapter. It is not the whole Qur'an context which is in 60:8-9.
I suggest you read chapter 3 again. I have provided the summary for easy reference.
Chapter 3 contained a mixed bag of advice and messages.
I suggest you categorize the 199 verses in various categories and see the variety of subjects involved.


While Chronologically it was recited with two battles alluded, the verses related to not befriending Jews and Christians were independent.


Note the Battle of Badr and Uhod were fought against the Meccans not the Jews and Christians.
If this is against enemies of war, then the verses should say do not befriend the Meccans, but why do the verses said Jews and Christians instead.


If you read the whole Quran in context then you will note it is not related to battles but to Muhammad hatred of Jews and Christians in general as reflected in 1:6-7 and many other verses all over the Quran.


Note in some of the verses some Christians were praised. This is a specific point in relation to these Christians whose practices were like the Muslims. These Christians were in fact monks.
At this point, Muhammad was trying to gain favor from the Christians.
When the Christians rejected Muhammad's message he later condemned Christians in some other verses.


But 3:28, 3:100, 3:128 is a general "command" not to befriend Jews and Christians as casual friends or be their associated [awliya] and not as intimate friends.

Note there were verse on Zacharias, Mary, Jesus, Abraham etc. What has this to do with Badr and Uhod. The Biblical stories were told in various chapters.


Quote:
Intimates are those who were made aware of secrets about preparations for defence of Madina.
As I had stated most of the 40++ English translations indicated intimate [Pickthall and others] or bosom friends [Asad], close friends, and the likes.
You are so desperate in this case and twist Allah's words to suit your wrong view.


As for 60:8-9, I have explained it is a Duck-Rabbit scenario of two truths.
You insist on seeing one truth of 60:8-9 of low weightage, but
other Muslims will view the other truths in 3:28, 3:100, 3:118 as another truths which they will comply with and Allah will agree with them.
The point is it is not up to "you" to judge for Allah.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-08-2016 at 04:41 AM..
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is an analysis of the various subjects within Chapter 3.
Almost like chapter 2, you will note Chapter 3 is a mixed of various subjects which are not necessary related in context;


The listing of subjects with its number of verses involved in Chapter 3.
Muslims -103 verses
Cause of Allah -9
Duty Worship -20
Fear -Threat -5
Eschatology -72
Judgment Day -68
Resurrection -9
Hereafter -9
Punishment -7
Hell & Fire -15
Doomed -14
Reward Paradise -22
INFIDELs -115
Bible Torah Pharaoh -58
Jews & Christian -26
Hatred J &X -4
Jesus Mary -22
Fight, War -43
Why Violent -17
Jihad -35
Sword Verses -22
Social Elements -4


The subject is listed with the number of related verses.
For example there are 9 verses in Chapter 3 which is related to Cause of Allah.
You will note "infidels" is mentioned in [negative light] in 115 verses of 200.


There are 43 verses related to fighting and war.
There are 26 verses related to Jews and Christians together with its befriending elements.


As I have argued the Badr and Uhod were battles with the Meccan, thus the Jews and Christians were not serious enemies of the Muslims yet at that time.
Therefore 30:28, 30:100. 30:113 cannot be related in context to the battles.


Note I have a listing of 300++ analysis for all the chapters which give a very thorough understanding of the Quran in a very objective manner. Therefore it is not likely you can pull a fast one on me using your subjective, psychological and emotional basis.
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an analysis of the various subjects within Chapter 3.
Almost like chapter 2, you will note Chapter 3 is a mixed of various subjects which are not necessary related in context;


The listing of subjects with its number of verses involved in Chapter 3.
Muslims -103 verses
Cause of Allah -9
Duty Worship -20
Fear -Threat -5
Eschatology -72
Judgment Day -68
Resurrection -9
Hereafter -9
Punishment -7
Hell & Fire -15
Doomed -14
Reward Paradise -22
INFIDELs -115
Bible Torah Pharaoh -58
Jews & Christian -26
Hatred J &X -4
Jesus Mary -22
Fight, War -43
Why Violent -17
Jihad -35
Sword Verses -22
Social Elements -4


The subject is listed with the number of related verses.
For example there are 9 verses in Chapter 3 which is related to Cause of Allah.
You will note "infidels" is mentioned in [negative light] in 115 verses of 200.


There are 43 verses related to fighting and war.
There are 26 verses related to Jews and Christians together with its befriending elements.


As I have argued the Badr and Uhod were battles with the Meccan, thus the Jews and Christians were not serious enemies of the Muslims yet at that time.
Therefore 30:28, 30:100. 30:113 cannot be related in context to the battles.


Note I have a listing of 300++ analysis for all the chapters which give a very thorough understanding of the Quran in a very objective manner. Therefore it is not likely you can pull a fast one on me using your subjective, psychological and emotional basis.
Which adds up to 699 verses, but Surah 3 only contains 200 verses so I assume you are including verses in multiple categories, nothing wrong with that, but that can lead to misunderstandings. Also some of your own bias or opinions may be involved as you are finding (Infidel) 115 times, but it actually the word infidel never occurs. in the surah. We are getting your opinion and not unbiased statistical data.
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I suggest you read chapter 3 again. I have provided the summary for easy reference.
Chapter 3 contained a mixed bag of advice and messages.
I suggest you categorize the 199 verses in various categories and see the variety of subjects involved.

While Chronologically it was recited with two battles alluded, the verses related to not befriending Jews and Christians were independent.
I am not sure what you are suggesting here. To see the full picture, the Qur'anic context, you need to collect all the verses in the Qur'an on the same subject. The verses about Jews and Christians in this chapter are neither independent from the situation in Madina at the time nor are these verses independent of the similar other verses in other chapters in the Qur'an. Read the whole of the 3:118 and it will tell you why believers in Madina could not take them into their secrets.

Quote:
Note the Battle of Badr and Uhod were fought against the Meccans not the Jews and Christians.
If this is against enemies of war, then the verses should say do not befriend the Meccans, but why do the verses said Jews and Christians instead.
Did you not read, "vehement hatred has appeared from their mouths and what they conceal in their breasts (hearts) is even worse"? How did Muhammad know what was in their hearts that was even worse than hatred from their mouths if he was writing it himself?

Quote:
If you read the whole Quran in context then you will note it is not related to battles but to Muhammad hatred of Jews and Christians in general as reflected in 1:6-7 and many other verses all over the Quran.
This is where your own imagination comes into it. When 1:6-7 was revealed, Muhammad hadn't yet dilivered any message to Jews or Christisns other than his wife and her cousin.

Quote:
Note in some of the verses some Christians were praised. This is a specific point in relation to these Christians whose practices were like the Muslims. These Christians were in fact monks.
At this point, Muhammad was trying to gain favor from the Christians.
When the Christians rejected Muhammad's message he later condemned Christians in some other verses.
You study the Qur'an with these ideas already in your mind, you are going only in one direction; the direction you already see before studying the Qur'an.

Quote:
But 3:28, 3:100, 3:128 is a general "command" not to befriend Jews and Christians as casual friends or be their associated [awliya] and not as intimate friends.
3:28 does not mention all Christians and Jews but unbelievers out of them.
3:100 is extension of 3:99 and is self explanatory. It is not about "befrending them" but "obeying them"; a different issue.

Quote:
Note there were verse on Zacharias, Mary, Jesus, Abraham etc. What has this to do with Badr and Uhod. The Biblical stories were told in various chapters.
DIfference between real believer and unbeliever is exposed with these verses.

Quote:
As I had stated most of the 40++ English translations indicated intimate [Pickthall and others] or bosom friends [Asad], close friends, and the likes.
You are so desperate in this case and twist Allah's words to suit your wrong view.
Yusuf Ali translates it as "take lnto intimacy". Pickthall into "intimates". Asad into "bosom-friends". These are not casual friends. The warning for intimacy is explained in the verse.

Quote:
As for 60:8-9, I have explained it is a Duck-Rabbit scenario of two truths.
You insist on seeing one truth of 60:8-9 of low weightage, but
other Muslims will view the other truths in 3:28, 3:100, 3:118 as another truths which they will comply with and Allah will agree with them.
The point is it is not up to "you" to judge for Allah.
But why is it the other way round for you in this case?
60:8-9 is of higher weightage than any human friendship. It is a friendship one can trust more than a casual friendship. You look at the issue back to front and I front to back. Yes, it is a matter of seeing allowance in 60:9 when other verses (of lower weightage) highlight only part of the 60:9; the last part. I see both sides of the coin in 60:8-9 and you are looking for just one side and missing the other side.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Which adds up to 699 verses, but Surah 3 only contains 200 verses so I assume you are including verses in multiple categories, nothing wrong with that, but that can lead to misunderstandings.
Also some of your own bias or opinions may be involved as you are finding (Infidel) 115 times, but it actually the word infidel never occurs. in the surah. We are getting your opinion and not unbiased statistical data.
Yes, some larger verses may contain more than one and up to 6 categories. This is based on fact, there is nothing to misunderstand.


Take for example 3:12
3:12. Lo! Allah will cause those [Muslims] who believe and do good works to enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; while those [infidels] who disbelieve [infidels] take their comfort in this life and [the infidels] eat even as the cattle eat, and the Fire is their [infidels] habitation.
The following categories applicable are Allah, Muslims, Eschatology, Judgment Day, Hell & Fire, & Infidels, this World.
What is wrong with this classification.


I use the category 'infidels' to cover* any people who are not Muslims [i.e. disbelievers, apostates, Christian & Jews, idolaters, where relevant] and in the negative sense. Basically it represent the "them" in the "us versus them" impulse.
* the space provided in my computer program is limited so I have to use a short word.
So the term 'infidels' in this case is not critical but the context as I explained is.
In 3:71 the Christians and Jews are viewed as infidels in the negative sense.
3:71. O People of the Scripture! [Jews and Christians] Why confound ye [as infidels] truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?


Yes it is my statistics and the onus is on me to explain my basis of analysis and for you to understand [not necessary agree] my method of analysis.
All statistics are subject to a margin of error and I think mine is very low.


So in Chapter 3, 115 verses contain negative elements that are direct at people who are not-Muslims [i.e. disbelievers, apostates, Christians & Jews, idolaters, etc.]
I suggest you read Chapter 3 to confirm my point.
Even if you omit some, there will still be a large number of verse that convey contempt and hatred against those who are not-Muslim.
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Old 03-09-2016, 03:28 AM
 
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The Qur'an 3:199 does not regard ALL the followers of the previous revelations as unbelievers!/infidels/non-Muslims.
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Old 03-09-2016, 03:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I am not sure what you are suggesting here. To see the full picture, the Qur'anic context, you need to collect all the verses in the Qur'an on the same subject. The verses about Jews and Christians in this chapter are neither independent from the situation in Madina at the time nor are these verses independent of the similar other verses in other chapters in the Qur'an. Read the whole of the 3:118 and it will tell you why believers in Madina could not take them into their secrets.
My point is to show you I have done very extensive analysis to understand the Quran.
The listing of Chapter 3 is merely an example.
I have done the same analysis for the whole of the Quran to get the full picture.
Therefore I am able to extract* all the verses in the Quran on the same subject.
* able but quite tedious for me to do so at present.


Here is 3:118
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims]. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.
Where did 3:118 implied "intimacy" of secrets.
The Muslims are exhorted not take non-Muslims as intimate [close, bosom] friends because they will go out to ruin any Muslim. This is followed up with the condemnations against the non-Muslims, i.e. hamper you, has hatred in what they say, and worst intentions in the mind.
Muslims are instructed to take their own folk, i.e. Muslims as intimate [close, bosom] friend.


Note this point of not befriending non-Muslims is supported by many other similar verses in the Quran with an overriding mood of hatred for all non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar, kafara, apostates, idolaters,].


Quote:
Did you not read, "vehement hatred has appeared from their mouths and what they conceal in their breasts (hearts) is even worse"? How did Muhammad know what was in their hearts that was even worse than hatred from their mouths if he was writing it himself?
In 3:118 it was not Muhammad but Allah who know what was in their hearts.
Allah is all knowing so Allah should know and such a claim is repeated many times in other verses in the Quran.

Quote:
This is where your own imagination comes into it. When 1:6-7 was revealed, Muhammad hadn't yet dilivered any message to Jews or Christisns other than his wife and her cousin.
Look at the chronological perspective. In the Meccan phase Allah [actually Muhammad] was very angry with the Jews for changing the words of Allah and the Christians for being astray with the concept of Jesus as son and trinity.
I believe Chapter 1 is the first chapter of the Medina Phase and Chapter 2 is a summary of the Meccan phase with some Medinian elements.

Quote:
You study the Qur'an with these ideas already in your mind, you are going only in one direction; the direction you already see before studying the Qur'an.
It is by default believers [you] must be bias and follow the Quran with a one-track mind otherwise Islam will not work for them.
I have demonstrated I approach the Quran and Islam objectively from many perspectives including stepping into the shoes of a Muslim.

Quote:
3:28 does not mention all Christians and Jews but unbelievers out of them.
3:100 is extension of 3:99 and is self explanatory. It is not about "befrending them" but "obeying them"; a different issue.
3:28 mentioned disbelievers. Jews and Christians who believed the corrupted texts are in a way disbelievers, i.e. not Muslims.
3:100 implied friend-awliyaa as guardian and obeying the Christians as guardian -awliya thus 'friend'.


Quote:
Yusuf Ali translates it as "take lnto intimacy". Pickthall into "intimates". Asad into "bosom-friends". These are not casual friends. The warning for intimacy is explained in the verse.
Ali's interpretation is off tangent from the intended meaning.
Note Asad and Pickthall are more accurate in their translations as with most of the 40++ English translation I refer to.



Quote:
But why is it the other way round for you in this case?
60:8-9 is of higher weightage than any human friendship. It is a friendship one can trust more than a casual friendship. You look at the issue back to front and I front to back. Yes, it is a matter of seeing allowance in 60:9 when other verses (of lower weightage) highlight only part of the 60:9; the last part. I see both sides of the coin in 60:8-9 and you are looking for just one side and missing the other side.
I give 'not befriending' a higher weightage because all over the Quran, Allah hate non-Muslims [disbelievers, apostates, idolaters, etc.].
There are thousands of verses that condemn, 'hate', dehumanize non-Muslims in the Quran in comparison to the few verses that say any thing positive. It is like 10 +ve against 3000s -ve.
I suggest you reread the Quran again.


I have done very extensive analysis of the Quran with over 300++ subjects and the full picture in context is Allah 'hate' and despise non-Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-09-2016 at 03:50 AM..
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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One would also need to understand how wali was used in daily usage at the time. It was a title used primarily for government leaders and in today's MSA equates to Governor, Chief or President.

In the common concept of "Friend" Saddig or variations thereof are used. A person would never call a friend Wali unless the friend is in a position of authority or leadership over them. However I have found that in today's street usage especialy among those who do not speak Arabic as their first language Wali is being used where saddiq should be.
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