Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm guess Deconsolidation would have to be voted upon by the populace. Not sure how that works. I would agree that it would probably be best, but I think the boundaries of Jacksonville as stated above would have to be expanded a bit to still appear on America's radar.
I don't know how a city (which is what is usually formed) would leave a consolidated city/county - but if it's simply a question of incorporating an unincorporated area in a county - the people in the proposed city vote on it (although there may be some preliminary steps). We had such a vote to incorporate in Ponte Vedra Beach a while back (and the voters gave it a thumbs down).
FWIW - I think "deconsolidation" would be a total disaster for the "City" of JAX - especially the urban core. One of the initial reasons for consolidation was that the urban core had a meager and declining tax base - but yet was supposed to pay for the upkeep of expensive "downtown" things that were thought to confer a benefit on people outside the city. Robyn
The biggest problem with Jacksonville is the sad state of the schools. I live in Avondale and we love it but one of the costs that really has to be considered is tuition for private school. I talk to many people that are from Jax but they have moved to St Johns or Clay County because of the perceived better schools. And its not all about money for schools
Better schools= more people choosing to live in Duval County rather than Clay or St Johns. More people in the Central Core and Riverside/Avondale Springfield and San Marco.
Infrastructure is already in place. As the suburban infrastructure ages it will be much more expensive to upgrade which means higher utility bills. A Much sorter drive to work is nice too.
But Jax isnt alone in sprawl. When I go to Atlanta its amazing that there are so many business centers( forgive me I dont know the names of sections of Atlanta) out around 285 in addition to Downtown. But Atlanta metro is the monster that swallowed Georgia
You make very excellent points, jsimms, many I've been piping for a while now. The idea of splitting up city/town lines is something I've believed in for a while. These are some rough examples of the town lines, I've thought up:
Jacksonville - Urban core, riverside, san marco, springfield
Town of Southpoint - all of the southpoint business district, town center area/UNF, tinsletown area, all the way to avenues area, and east to hodges
Town of Westfall - Large stretch of land from where riverside ends to the county border, South until reaching Orange Park
Town of Northridge - everything north of springfield, arlington, westside, stretching to county border
Town of Regent - everything north of atlantic/arlington expressway stopping at St Johns River
Town of Neptune - Everything east of intracoastal waterway to all of the beaches.
Town of Mandarin - Everything East of St Johns that's not a part of Town of Southpoint. Included areas are Bartram Park, Julington Creek, etc... reaching South until border of St Johns.
The pre-consolidation City of JAX included most of Northside. Why don't you think it belongs in a new City of JAX?
FWIW - your "City" would almost certainly have a population of < 100,000 - possibly less than 50,000. That's not a City in my book - that's a large town. And you left the area where Simms grew up out of your city (he grew up in Ortega). You also forgot Avondale. You would lump these areas into your "Westside".
And in case you forgot - most of the JAX Beaches is currently in one of 3 existing cities - Atlantic Beach - JAX Beach - and Neptune Beach. If they wanted to consolidate as one "Beaches" city - reckon they would have done so in the past. Robyn
The biggest problem with Jacksonville is the sad state of the schools. I live in Avondale and we love it but one of the costs that really has to be considered is tuition for private school. I talk to many people that are from Jax but they have moved to St Johns or Clay County because of the perceived better schools. And its not all about money for schools
Better schools= more people choosing to live in Duval County rather than Clay or St Johns. More people in the Central Core and Riverside/Avondale Springfield and San Marco.
Infrastructure is already in place. As the suburban infrastructure ages it will be much more expensive to upgrade which means higher utility bills. A Much sorter drive to work is nice too.
But Jax isnt alone in sprawl. When I go to Atlanta its amazing that there are so many business centers( forgive me I dont know the names of sections of Atlanta) out around 285 in addition to Downtown. But Atlanta metro is the monster that swallowed Georgia
I agree with your statement about the schools (it's one reason the average head of household in our community is now < 40 - it was > 50 when we first moved here) . But JAX isn't unique in that regard. Most large cities with substantial poor populations have problems with their school systems too. And younger people frequently leave "the City" when they get married and have kids precisely because of the school problems.
I think that better jobs would help. But to the extent that the metro area is getting new jobs - they're not going downtown or anywhere near downtown for the most part. I see lots of big employers on the Southside (and there may be big employers on the Westside and the Northside - I'm not that familiar with those areas). If you work at Mayo - living anywhere near downtown isn't very convenient. (Note that I think living close to where one works is a priority - and always tried to do that when I was working.)
And when it comes to jobs and young people - I don't think the bigger/"sexier" cities are all they're cracked up to be. Because the salaries in those places frequently aren't huge - and the cost of living is very very high. I have some 20-something nieces/nephews living in big cities (like New York and Boston) now - and they couldn't afford to live in those places unless they were being subsidized (by their parents - their schools - etc.).
I don't think downtown is going to come back to being anything in my lifetime. But it might during the lifetimes of younger people. I know fsu813 and I agree on one thing that can be done now - get the homeless out of there. And I think the next time we have a building boom (and we will have one - Florida is always boom and bust in terms of real estate) - we should encourage wall to wall condos and high rise apartments downtown on the water (none of this 11 E. Forsyth junk) - places with beautiful views and pools and boat lifts/slips (what 20-something wants or has the means to rehab a 100 year old house?). Tear down the Landing (it's garbage IMO) - any old building on the water - and get people to move there. First off - people who work at the downtown hospitals - the courthouse - etc. Kind of like Brickell Avenue in Miami. The more people you have - the more services you'll get.
And encourage businesses that are ok in lower rise buildings to build new office buildings (there is so much vacant space for them to build 2-3 story buildings once you get 3 blocks away from the River). With the new courthouse - lawyers are of course a natural (I think Gainesville has more small lawyers' offices near its courthouse than we do - only the really big law firms can afford a place like the building that used to be called the Modis building). And near the courthouse - short walking distance. Get a Y (or similar athletic facility). Get a Publix (it will have to do more business than the one at Nocatee). A dental practice. A decent hairdresser. A Subway or whatever kind of place like that people like to patronize these days. A good bar (lawyers love to drink). Ask yourself the kind of places you use a lot - downtown should have them. At first close to the courthouse - because that will be a large source of business in the near future.
The City might have to throw some subsidies here and there - but I'd rather throw a few dollars at a bunch of smaller projects than a whole lot of dollars at a huge project. A Johnny Appleseed approach. An organic - not a master planning approach. See what takes root. I'm not sure any of this would work (most Florida downtowns are crummy - although ours is crummier than most). But downtown JAX is a Janis Joplin ("nothing left to lose") kind of downtown these days IMO. No harm in trying. Robyn
Except a city as sprawled out such as Jacksonville (biggest footprint in the US) will literally take decades to turn around. It's going to be extremely difficult to wrangle in what's already been done & will be a slow, steady process (if we're lucky).
A big problem is that the damage has already been done to much of the downtown infrastructure (housing, transportation, etc). During the decline, they've tore up/paved over all the streetcar tracks, widened urban streets making them into highways that favor cars instead of pedestrians, literally leveled entire neighborhoods & replaced them with absolutely nothing (Lavilla for instance), etc. You can't get that back, so you have to wait on a complete redevelopment of these areas with new (expensive) projects.
Another problem is simply leadership. A lot of the same entities who caused this mess are still around influencing today's decisions. And if the new Mayor turns out to be Hogan (VERY likely), then you can probably kiss any of that stuff goodbye for the foreseeable future. People & grassroots can only do so much, you really need the city to help out with a lot of this stuff. And I don't see a Tea Party-backed ultra-conservative Mayor of a southern city doing that (they usually hate that kind of stuff & see it as a waste of money).
I mean, this is the guy that was all for the destruction of the Florida high speed rail project without even really studying it & has remarked he'd like to shutdown the Skyway as well. So you can probably imagine where his priorities lie (or don't lie I should say).
I have no doubt many cities are getting it together with their cores & downtowns, I know they are in fact. I just don't think Jacksonville is one of them.
Hi Kerry - I seem to recall you came here from DC. Where the only growth industry is government. Would you send any kids you had to DC schools - or send them to private schools there - or move out to the burbs (because you couldn't afford private schools)? This is an honest - not a trick question. Because I don't know any young people in DC these days. People I know my age in DC (mostly Harvard lawyers) sent their kids to private schools - so they could - like they did - wind up in Ivy League schools.
FWIW - IMO - there's still a lot of racial stuff going on in the south (and any other city in the US regardless of geographical location with a large black population). Which is why people here are talking about a new City of JAX that is pretty much without black people.
My solution is still closing down the 90%+ black schools - and winding up with integrated schools (that are no more than 30% black - that is doable in JAX - and once you get to 40-50% - the sh** tends to hit the fan IMO). I'm sorry if people don't like what I say - but - after living in the south for 40 years - I call them as I see them. I am even in favor of busing over county lines. Take the poor kids from under performing crummy schools - and sprinkle them among all the ok schools in the metro area.
And I will again put it to black people here. Would you prefer that your kids walk to a lousy school near where you live - or go on a bus to a good school? Would you send your kids on a bus to Mandarin or Ponte Vedra Beach? (Northside - I'm talking to you - although I don't think you have kids - or a wife . Robyn
....widened urban streets making them into highways that favor cars instead of pedestrians...
It would be very easy to get rid of the Union/State one way pair. Just route all thru traffic from 95 to the Matthews ( and Hart) bridges on to the MLK Pkwy and make the upgrades. Revert State and Union to 2 way streets with traffic calming measures. That wouldnt cost too much but it would better link Springfield w Downtown.
I read I think in Metrojacksonville.com that there is plans to eliminate many of the one way streets in downtown. Do it!
Except a city as sprawled out such as Jacksonville (biggest footprint in the US) will literally take decades to turn around. It's going to be extremely difficult to wrangle in what's already been done & will be a slow, steady process (if we're lucky).
A big problem is that the damage has already been done to much of the downtown infrastructure (housing, transportation, etc). During the decline, they've tore up/paved over all the streetcar tracks, widened urban streets making them into highways that favor cars instead of pedestrians, literally leveled entire neighborhoods & replaced them with absolutely nothing (Lavilla for instance), etc. You can't get that back, so you have to wait on a complete redevelopment of these areas with new (expensive) projects.
Another problem is simply leadership. A lot of the same entities who caused this mess are still around influencing today's decisions. And if the new Mayor turns out to be Hogan (VERY likely), then you can probably kiss any of that stuff goodbye for the foreseeable future. People & grassroots can only do so much, you really need the city to help out with a lot of this stuff. And I don't see a Tea Party-backed ultra-conservative Mayor of a southern city doing that (they usually hate that kind of stuff & see it as a waste of money).
I mean, this is the guy that was all for the destruction of the Florida high speed rail project without even really studying it & has remarked he'd like to shutdown the Skyway as well. So you can probably imagine where his priorities lie (or don't lie I should say).
I have no doubt many cities are getting it together with their cores & downtowns, I know they are in fact. I just don't think Jacksonville is one of them.
Kerry - The first time I was in JAX was in 1971 (I took the bar exam here). And my husband and I - as Florida lawyers - handled lawsuits here over a couple of decades. Believe me - the place was a total toilet in 1971 - and downtown didn't get any better from that time on. The stench from the paper mills did disappear perhaps in the early 90's. Which made suburban development attractive to people who didn't like the stink of paper mills.
And if you think there was some "glory period" pre-1970 or so - you weren't a black person. What do you think was glorious about the deep south pre-1970 or so? Robyn
It would be very easy to get rid of the Union/State one way pair. Just route all thru traffic from 95 to the Matthews ( and Hart) bridges on to the MLK Pkwy and make the upgrades. Revert State and Union to 2 way streets with traffic calming measures. That wouldnt cost too much but it would better link Springfield w Downtown.
State & Union will never be reverted back, but many of the other streets will, I believe. Including Main street, between State & 1st. This will help connectivity immensely.
And when it comes to jobs and young people - I don't think the bigger/"sexier" cities are all they're cracked up to be.
Well, as the original opost described, young successful professionals (20 & somethings) don't agree with you.
And I could give 100 other articles that describe the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
...we should encourage wall to wall condos and high rise apartments downtown on the water (none of this 11 E. Forsyth junk) - places with beautiful views and pools and boat lifts/slips (what 20-something wants or has the means to rehab a 100 year old house?). Tear down the Landing (it's garbage IMO) - any old building on the water - and get people to move there. First off - people who work at the downtown hospitals - the courthouse - etc. Kind of like Brickell Avenue in Miami. The more people you have - the more services you'll get.
And encourage businesses that are ok in lower rise buildings to build new office buildings (there is so much vacant space for them to build 2-3 story buildings once you get 3 blocks away from the River). With the new courthouse - lawyers are of course a natural (I think Gainesville has more small lawyers' offices near its courthouse than we do - only the really big law firms can afford a place like the building that used to be called the Modis building). And near the courthouse - short walking distance. Get a Y (or similar athletic facility). Get a Publix (it will have to do more business than the one at Nocatee). A dental practice. A decent hairdresser. A Subway or whatever kind of place like that people like to patronize these days. A good bar (lawyers love to drink). Ask yourself the kind of places you use a lot - downtown should have them. At first close to the courthouse - because that will be a large source of business in the near future.
You simply don't know what you're taking about.
11 E, for example, is not desperate for renters at all. And it's very nice place. As is The Carling, the Knight lofts, and most of the rest of downtown housing. The demand is there for decent apartment/loft living in downtown. That's not the problem. The problem is simply financing and the bad market. Once banks loosen up their lending practices in a year or 2, you'll see activity.
The Landing, despite what you may have heard, is not doing poorly. It's just fine. Not great, not bad, but ok. It's seldom absent of people. A friend and I just rode our bikes down there, along the riverwalk (very nice night for that) and it was busy, for example. They get people there, otherwise Chicago Pizza, Hooters, and the 30+ other businesses there wouldn't be there. The Landing just needs some tweaking (opening it up to Laura Street, etc).
As far as what downtown should "get", it has virtaully everything you named. An abundace of bars, my dentist, my wife's salon, plenty of food places (is Quiznos' close enough to a Subway for you?), a decent (not great) grocery store, etc. Again, just beacuse you persnally are not aware of these things....and how could you be, you're not particularly interstd in what young professionals are interested in, doesn't mean they don't exisist. Educate yourself.
It does lack compared to other large downtowns, sure. But it has more of a variety of "stuff" in it than any other 2x2 sq mile area in town. And a lot of unqiue stuff at that, that you won't find anywhere else.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. Robyn
