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Old 06-28-2010, 07:51 AM
 
2,963 posts, read 3,052,749 times
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If the initial offer is on the top of high-end, I'd be skeptical. Even if you were a perfect fit, the employer knows you are interested in the job... knows you saw the salary range and guesses you might haggle for more money. With all of that in mind, why offer the high-end immediately? Unless it was a firm offer to start with.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:29 PM
 
5,947 posts, read 6,850,872 times
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Okay everybody, I have an update on this. (and thank you for your advice so far!)

Yes, this process actually did end up involving a 30 min phone interview and two ~45 minute face to face interviews. They do not have any clue what I currently make, and offered me 30K, dead center in the range. Here is what I know about their situation:

-They are a small company about 10 years old (30 - 60 people). This means more responsibilities for me, but possibly that they have less money to offer, too.
-They have been looking to hire two people since 6 months ago, they actually divulged that in the past two months they have only interviewed two people, including me. And their ad is back online as of today, so the other candidate doesn't seem to have worked out.
-There are three job titles I have been doing research on:
-The title they use: 29K - 48K
-More accurate title (considering the job responsibilities IMO): 33K - 64K
-Slightly less accurate title: 35K - 68K
All of those are taken from salary review sites that take into consideration both my years of experience and my geographic location.
-The job involves frequent overnight travel, this IS a perk to me (I think), but I still think I should be compensated for my time.

Given all of the above, I'm really tempted to counteroffer at like 55K. I hope they wouldn't consider this out of the ballpark, but really, I consider their offer out of the ballpark after really discussing the responsibilities of the job; they seem to know they are looking for a person with a pretty unique set of skills and experiences. So my questions are:

-Should I give an in depth analysis of how I think I deserve this much more compensation? If so, how indepth should I go? Should I literally say: "I think the job duties more closely match [alternate job title]which payscale.com shows as having a range of 33K - 64K for this region of the country and my years of experience?" Or just say I had been hoping for the $XX range, is there any flexibility?

-Should I give a number at all? I think if I just generally ask for "more" they'll bump it up 5K, maybe 10K if I'm really lucky. I feel that I need to let them know how big of a disconnect there is between the offer and what I am expecting.

Thank you!

EDIT: Just in case it's not clear. Their offer of 30K would be an ever so slight pay cut versus my current position. I would really like to work out a deal with this company, but if the current offer gets rescinded, I didn't lose out on any opportunity.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:23 PM
 
1,173 posts, read 4,116,377 times
Reputation: 1330
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday View Post
Okay everybody, I have an update on this. (and thank you for your advice so far!)

Yes, this process actually did end up involving a 30 min phone interview and two ~45 minute face to face interviews. They do not have any clue what I currently make, and offered me 30K, dead center in the range. Here is what I know about their situation:

-They are a small company about 10 years old (30 - 60 people). This means more responsibilities for me, but possibly that they have less money to offer, too.
-They have been looking to hire two people since 6 months ago, they actually divulged that in the past two months they have only interviewed two people, including me. And their ad is back online as of today, so the other candidate doesn't seem to have worked out.
-There are three job titles I have been doing research on:
-The title they use: 29K - 48K
-More accurate title (considering the job responsibilities IMO): 33K - 64K
-Slightly less accurate title: 35K - 68K
All of those are taken from salary review sites that take into consideration both my years of experience and my geographic location.
-The job involves frequent overnight travel, this IS a perk to me (I think), but I still think I should be compensated for my time.

Given all of the above, I'm really tempted to counteroffer at like 55K. I hope they wouldn't consider this out of the ballpark, but really, I consider their offer out of the ballpark after really discussing the responsibilities of the job; they seem to know they are looking for a person with a pretty unique set of skills and experiences. So my questions are:

-Should I give an in depth analysis of how I think I deserve this much more compensation? If so, how indepth should I go? Should I literally say: "I think the job duties more closely match [alternate job title]which payscale.com shows as having a range of 33K - 64K for this region of the country and my years of experience?" Or just say I had been hoping for the $XX range, is there any flexibility?

-Should I give a number at all? I think if I just generally ask for "more" they'll bump it up 5K, maybe 10K if I'm really lucky. I feel that I need to let them know how big of a disconnect there is between the offer and what I am expecting.

Thank you!

EDIT: Just in case it's not clear. Their offer of 30K would be an ever so slight pay cut versus my current position. I would really like to work out a deal with this company, but if the current offer gets rescinded, I didn't lose out on any opportunity.

I don't know how to put this lightly so I'm just going to come out with it: YOU'RE NUTS. They offered you $30K and you want to counter $55k?? Asking for an additional $15k is not crazy when you are talking about a $100K or even $85K offer but do you realize that you are asking for an additional FIFTY PERCENT of the salary they offered?!?!??! Not going to happen. Best case scenario you haggle them up to $35K and then tell your current job you have an offer, hope they counter you and give you an increase. Stay where you are make a little more and keep looking. The other job has more responsibilities and less pay, not a good idea. And overnight travel is not as much of a perk as you think it is trust me, you're working not vacationing.

Sorry to be harsh but it's true.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:33 PM
 
5,947 posts, read 6,850,872 times
Reputation: 3685
Quote:
Originally Posted by icibiu View Post
I don't know how to put this lightly so I'm just going to come out with it: YOU'RE NUTS. They offered you $30K and you want to counter $55k?? Asking for an additional $15k is not crazy when you are talking about a $100K or even $85K offer but do you realize that you are asking for an additional FIFTY PERCENT of the salary they offered?!?!??! Not going to happen. Best case scenario you haggle them up to $35K and then tell your current job you have an offer, hope they counter you and give you an increase. Stay where you are make a little more and keep looking. The other job has more responsibilities and less pay, not a good idea. And overnight travel is not as much of a perk as you think it is trust me, you're working not vacationing.

Sorry to be harsh but it's true.
Thanks for your input. Part of what I am looking for is what number or range I should even be throwing out there as a counteroffer, or whether to be specific at all. 55K was just a mid-high range number I picked from the salary ranges I found through sites like payscale.com. There was zero discussion of salary expectations at either interview, I think that they might have lowballed it on the off chance I'd accept, or with the expectation that I would negotiate.

So do you think that my salary data research has no real value as a bargaining chip, nor the fact that they have been searching for two people for half a year now? They generally seemed eager to be done with the job search process. I definitely hear what you're saying, but I feel it would be no different to say that they are nuts to offer ~10% below the lowest end of the range for this sort of position.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 11,293,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodaka View Post
Honestly IMO, not very realistic.

Remember, their range for the job is based on what THEY feel the job is worth. Your past employer doesn't determine that.

At most, if you met every.single.requirement they might offer you middle. From there perhaps you could negotiate a little bit more, but remember, in this economy, they hold the cards. If you try to negotiate they may just retract the offer and give it to someone else who is willing to work for less. They will almost certainly have many strong candidates.

But you are putting the cart before the horse. They haven't even called you yet let alone offered you the job. I would seriously be surprised if a job that pays $25k requires a phone interview AND two or three more in-person interviews. That's a lot of time for a company to put in for someone who frankly doesn't earn that much (sorry). If you do decide to walk away, respond in writing thanking them 'very much for their consideration but you must withdraw your name from consideration at this time. Best of luck in their search for a suitable candidate'. You don't need to offer an explanation, and if you are polite, you shouldn't burn the bridge.
I have to agree with this. Just withdraw from the process with this other company.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:54 AM
 
2,963 posts, read 3,052,749 times
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1) You will not get them up to 55K. No way, no how.

2) If you are certain this job should pay 55K and you'd be making 30-35K, you will probably not be happy about it once you are there.

3) Along with #2, if you accept this job at 30-35K with the knowledge that the company knows it is worth more, you will be walked over during your tenure there.

In my opinion, walk. Don't even counter. Politely reply that you are looking in whatever range you feel you really deserve and leave it at that. Look elsewhere. There is always that very tiny chance that they will re-evaluate you at a later time and find another position. I've actually seen this happen.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Stuck on the East Coast, hoping to head West
3,785 posts, read 9,228,757 times
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With such a huge discrepancy, I'd verify that I understand the actual duties. Maybe the job title is inaccurate? Is there a geographic difference that would explain the salary discrepancy?

At this point, I wouldn't necessarily walk away. Consider having them rewrite the job description and change the title to get more money. I'd also look at the whole package--will they kick in more for benefits? Higher 401K matching? Is HR making the offer? A recruiter? At this point, try to bypass them and talk directly to the manager.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:51 AM
 
Location: South Florida
165 posts, read 504,757 times
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Default 55K is outta the ballpark!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday View Post
Thanks for your input. Part of what I am looking for is what number or range I should even be throwing out there as a counteroffer, or whether to be specific at all. 55K was just a mid-high range number I picked from the salary ranges I found through sites like payscale.com. There was zero discussion of salary expectations at either interview, I think that they might have lowballed it on the off chance I'd accept, or with the expectation that I would negotiate.

So do you think that my salary data research has no real value as a bargaining chip, nor the fact that they have been searching for two people for half a year now? They generally seemed eager to be done with the job search process. I definitely hear what you're saying, but I feel it would be no different to say that they are nuts to offer ~10% below the lowest end of the range for this sort of position.
After reading your follow-up my initial reaction was like "icibiu"--CRAZY! Usually a salary range indicates the promotion potential for a position--folks negotiate to the middle in the beginning knowing that as they go along in the position they will get promotions/raises to get up to the high end of the range.

You indicate from your research that the "title they use" is from 29K to 48K--the midway point between these two would be around 38.5 so how in the world do you think they can start you at 55K which is 7K over the max?

They offered you 30K which means either they are NOT trying to stay competitive in the industry in terms of salary or that they just don't have the money.

In this low salary range, companies do not usually respond to the argument that you DESERVE more compensation for this or that reason or because you have XYZ skills. Normally this tactic is more useful when you are talking about very hard to find, highly skilled, highly compensated labor.

Another thought I had was if they readvertised the other position after the other person didn't work out, did they increase the salary range? If NOT then it means they don't have the money or this position is not crititcal enough for them to feel the need to get a body in there.

You write that they have been looking for six months and only had two interviews in the last two months--if there was a sense of urgency then it would follow that they should up the offer.

To answer your question--I think in this salary range your "salary data research has NO real value as a bargaining chip". Clearly they do not have the ability or desire to pay anything near 55K.

C.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:55 AM
 
5,947 posts, read 6,850,872 times
Reputation: 3685
Thanks for the input everyone. I think I am calling this one case closed. I did not ask for 55K from them (sorry that everyone thinks I'm crazy! That's why I looked for advice on a site like this, first). I just showed them the ranges I had found online, they didn't budge. I thanked them for the opportunity and said if things should change to feel free to contact me, but I cannot take the position at this time. They then upped the offer to $33,000 (surprised they didn't do this after my first letter explaining that 30K was too low, since I did not ask for 55K, In short I just asked if they could make a better offer that might reflect the market pay range).

A lot of salary negotiaton sites say things like "if they offered you the job that means they want YOU and they don't want to search again, 'if he wants another 20K just give it to him and be done with it.' is wha they'll say." These sites must be focusing on higher caliber jobs, though.

Anyway, I haven't responded. I am going to have a talk with my current employer and see where things are heading here. If it is a dead end here, I'll accept the new job, since at least it's a new opportunity and is not through a contractor, so there would be things like annual raises and possibly promitions.

Last edited by ferraris; 07-15-2010 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:57 PM
 
2,017 posts, read 4,965,320 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrarisnowday View Post
Thanks for the input everyone. I think I am calling this one case closed. I did not ask for 55K from them (sorry that everyone thinks I'm crazy! That's why I looked for advice on a site like this, first). I just showed them the ranges I had found online, they didn't budge. I thanked them for the opportunity and said if things should change to feel free to contact me, but I cannot take the position at this time. They then upped the offer to $33,000 (surprised they didn't do this after my first letter explaining that 30K was too low, since I did not ask for 55K, In short I just asked if they could make a better offer that might reflect the market pay range).

A lot of salary negotiaton sites say things like "if they offered you the job that means they want YOU and they don't want to search again, 'if he wants another 20K just give it to him and be done with it.' is wha they'll say." These sites must be focusing on higher caliber jobs, though.

Anyway, I haven't responded. I am going to have a talk with my current employer and see where things are heading here. If it is a dead end here, I'll accept the new job, since at least it's a new opportunity and is not through a contractor, so there would be things like annual raises and possibly promitions.
Honestly-- and even though it seems case is closed this may help you in the future.

A few things I am assuming from reading between the lines.

1. You may do a job sort of somewhat close to this type of job-- but not really. This job may have been a promotion for you or it was just something different.

2. Company is probably using a title that is just that a title. It does not accurately reflect what the job is.

What I mean by point 1 is that it sounds like to me you have no concept what the job REALLY should pay. For example, my background is project management and business analysis. I don't really need to go to a salary site to figure out in my area what the pay is. I know from networking the ballparks in my area.

In other words, I would not need to go into a interview with a range of numbers and try to tell a company what I am worth.

If I were sitting on the other side of the table, I would consider that tactic as key evidence that YOU don't even really know what you are worth. I definitely would not have offered you much more than a 10% increase on top of my current offer.

Second-- a title really means nothing. I knew a girl whose title at one job was Account Executive. She basically did data entry from magazine sales for a client. THAT WAS IT. The job paid 25k. But she had a pretty nifty title.

I worked as an account executive and I was really basically just an outdoor sales rep. However my base salary was 40k and I was paid commission. Our jobs, skills required, and level of responsibility were vastly different. This is just one example.

It is good you didn't ask for 55k based on the 30k. Almost asking for 100% more than their offer would never fly. WHen you are interviewing part of you is ALSO interviewing them to gauge the realistic fit.

I had an interview today-- I was asked if I would relocate and would I relocate on my own. My answer was honest: depending on the job, salary, and benefits I would definitely relocate. However, that would come out through negotiations because I have a figure in my head (that I know is in their range) that I would require in order to relocate for the role. Like them, I am interviewing the hiring manager to determine the fit and whether or not this job would be a match for me. And if I believe so I will negotiate with what I want-- and I expect them to negotiate as well.
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