Why do Jews leave out the "o" in "god" (religious, beliefs)

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Mircea

... the only person who can pronounce the name of god is the high-priest (the um, messiah) on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

The Kahane Gadol, not the Moshiach, is the High Preist.

[Fullback32]

This topic has now officially come under the heading of "who cares" or "why does it seem matter to you so much Mircea?"

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

The Kahane Gadol, not the Moshiach, is the High Preist.

What kind of gibberish is that?

Your knowledge of the Hebrew language is severely lacking.

Anyone can be a rabbi, but only a mashiach can be a priest. The word "mashiach" simply means "anointed one."

Cyrus the Mede Who Ruled from Persia was a mashiach.

So were all of the Hasmonean kings since in addition to being king they were also the high priest.

And no where in the Old Testament is mashiach capitalized; that is the word Mashiach appears no where, not even in Daniel.

There can be more than one messiah (mashiach) at once. Many of the nevi'im (prophets) were mashiachim.

During the Jewish Wars 66-70 BCE there were nearly 100 messiahs (mashiachim) running around causing mischief. Nero sent for Vespasian who was up commanding a legion group at Bradbury Rings (and yeah that's England for those who are lacking in geography skills).

About 18 months later, Vespasian arrives with Legion III (Cyrenaica), Legion III (Gallica) and Legion IV (Scythica).

The most famous of the messiahs were John Christ of Gishala, John Christ Bar Giora, Simon Christ the Idumean (poor John Christ Bar Giora -- he got captured and taken in chains to Rome).

Originally Posted by Fullback32

This topic has now officially come under the heading of "who cares" or "why does it seem matter to you so much Mircea?"

Obviously the implications are beyond your understanding, but for your amusement I'll summarize the story so far.

The Story So Far....

InsaneInDaMembrane asked a legitimate question:

"Why do Jews leave out the 'o' in 'god'?"

Jazzymom the recent Jew convert then falsely states:

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

out of respect. That is why write G-d.

I called her out for her erroneous statement:

Originally Posted by Mircea

Please enlighten us and explain why it took 1,700 years for Jews to gain sufficient respect for god to not pronounce the name.

It was perfectly okay for Hebrews to say God without penalty either by God or by their own kind from about 2,100 BCE to about 250 BCE.

By 250 BCE, it suddenly became wrong to say the name of god.

Jazzymom (ignoring my request) then retorts to another postor with a lame response:

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

Why can't Christians just accept that we Jews have our traditions and our way of doing things?

You have your way and we have ours.....

I suppose christians and Atheists and Agnostics could accept such a lame response if there were evidence to support it, but there is none.

Jazzymom wants you to ignore the fact that the tradition is recent, in terms of Judaism. She also fails to explain the origin of the tradition.

The origin of the tradition poses an inherent problem for both christians and Jews, because if one "tradition" has been changed, then how many other "traditions" have also been changed?

That speaks the veracity and historical integrity of the Old Testament (of which there is very little).

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

No I am not wrong. Everytime I read blessings or read from the Tanakh I read it as Adonai. When there are 2 yuds or YHVH it is read Adonai.

And the op is just why do we write G-d like this.

I explained why I do it. Others did too.

Here we have another lame excuse that is erroneously based and again she ignores the fact that the tradition did not exist for the first 1,700 years of Judaism.

She also falsely insinuates that Adonai is read for Yahweh and some people might actually believe her, so I presented some facts:

Originally Posted by Mircea

Fail.

The practice of not speaking god's name of Yahweh did not start until the 3rd Century BCE.

The Hebrew Tanakh is based on Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which comes from Codex Leningradis which is the oldest complete copy of the Old Testament. Many rabbis and priests prefer Codex Aleppo which is older than Codex Leningradis (which is dated to the 11th Century CE) even though Codex Aleppo is not complete.

It is typically rendered Elohim (gods plural stemming from the original Sumerian/Akkadian word El of which the Ugartic/Hebrew cognate is Elohe and the Semitic cognate is Allah), Adonai or the Tetragammon without the vowels.

In Greek and Latin texts its rendered as Kyrios and Dominus respectively.

When the Masoretes added vowels to the texts, there was no standard pronunciation for YHWH. You could pronounce it Yahweh, Yahwah, Yehwah, Yohweh or however you wanted.

The Masoretic texts typically use Adonai and for Yahweh Elohim it is typically rendered Adonai Adonai (and note that the Masoretic texts are even less complete than Codex Aleppo).

Codex Leningradis and Codex Aleppo also use ha-shema ("the Name" -- which is Aramaic) or ha-shem (also "the Name" which is Hebrew).

The name of god was pronounced, according you because the Hebrews had no respect for Yahweh, up until the about the 3rd Century BCE.

We know from the Mishna that the Messiah, oh gosh, I'm sorry, did I offend anyone with the TRUTH? um, the anointed one (that is the high priest) said aloud the name of god on the day of Yom Kippur.

We also know that by the time the Septuagint of Leviticus (and he called...) was written the practice of not uttering the name of god was starting to be chic and groovy because it says, “And he that names the name of God, let him die the death," while the oldest Hebrew text of Leviticus says, "He who uses the name of God in vain, ....”.

So, one of these things is not like the other. Obviously you could say the name of god, so long as you did not say the name of god in vain, but then later it became you cannot speak the name of god at all.

By the 2nd/1st Century BCE when the Essenes are getting whacked out we have:

“Whoever enunciates the Name (which is) honored above all … whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, … or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.”

Well, "this piece of halibut was good enough for Yahweh," boo-hoo I can't go back to the community council any more.

I hate to ruin your day, but the Elephantine Papyri and the Samaritan Papyri from the 5th Century BCE quite clearly pronounce the name of god without the Tetragammon and without Adonai or anything else, and not only that it seems people had different names for god like Ya (YH), Yahoo (I'm not making that up) and Yahveh.

Anyway the point is that from 2,100 BCE to 250 BCE the people spoke the name of god whenever they so desired and it was only after 250 BCE that it became taboo and evil to speak the name of god.

So, once again, I ask, why did it take the Hebrews 1,700 years to show respect to Yahweh?

Was there a reason that Yahweh did not deserve to be respected?

Did Yahweh forget to tell the Hebrews not to pronounce his name for 1,700 years (what kind of "god" forgets?)?

Also, I am an atheist. Why do I have to constantly instruct people in their own religion?

To which her response was:

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

Again the question was just why do we leave the o out of G-d. Nothing more.

It is your choice to become a Jerk.

This highlights another issue: When deluged with irrefutable facts, Jews and christians resort to insults and then run away with their tails between their legs.

However it's still a fail.

She claims the o is left out of G-d out of "respect" and then out of "tradition" but then refuses to acknowledge that the practice did not exist for the first 1,700 years of Judaism.

Neither answer, "respect" nor "tradition" is a valid answer to the question originally put forth by respected member InsaneInDaMembrane.

Why did the tradition not start until 1,700+ years later?

If the Hebrews started doing it out of respect in 250 BCE, then the logical conclusion is that they did not respect god for the first 1,700+ years or did not respect him enough.

If Hebrews didn't have enough respect then why should Atheists or Agnostics?

So then Herr Walter Grüenspann the Josef Göbbels Propaganda Scholarship Award Winner offers us this gem from a pseudo-intellectual site:

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

You fail.

According to Judaism 101: The Name of G-d

Nothing in the Torah prohibits a person from pronouncing the Name of God. Indeed, it is evident from scripture that God's Name was pronounced routinely. Many common Hebrew names contain "Yah" or "Yahu," part of God's four-letter Name. The Name was pronounced as part of daily services in the Temple.

The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times. In fact, the Mishnah recommends using God's Name as a routine greeting to a fellow Jew. Berakhot 9:5. However, by the time of the Talmud, it was the custom to use substitute Names for God. Some rabbis asserted that a person who pronounces YHVH according to its letters (instead of using a substitute) has no place in the World to Come, and should be put to death. Instead of pronouncing the four-letter Name, we usually substitute the Name "Adonai," or simply say "Ha-Shem" (lit. The Name).

Although the prohibition on pronunciation applies only to the four-letter Name, Jews customarily do not pronounce any of God's many Names except in prayer or study. The usual practice is to substitute letters or syllables, so that Adonai becomes Adoshem or Ha-Shem, Elohaynu and Elohim become Elokaynu and Elokim, etc.

With the Temple destroyed and the prohibition on pronouncing The Name outside of the Temple, pronunciation of the Name fell into disuse. Scholars passed down knowledge of the correct pronunciation of YHVH for many generations, but eventually the correct pronunciation was lost, and we no longer know it with any certainty. We do not know what vowels were used, or even whether the Vav in the Name was a vowel or a consonant.

The site makes this claim:

The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times.

However, as I pointed out:

The Septuagint of Leviticus (and he called...) says, “And he that names the name of God, let him die the death," while the oldest Hebrew text of Leviticus says, "He who uses the name of God in vain, ....”.

And so now we're starting to get to the crux of the matter and answer InsaneInDaMembrane's original question.

Someone, no doubt one or more or all of the 70 Hebrew Elite, who wrote the Septuagint version of the Old Testament intentionally altered the text of Leviticusto include a prohibition against using the name of Yahweh or "God" if you prefer.Why would they do that? Unlike the lame reasons proffered by Jazzymom had nothing to do with respect or tradition. You don't force traditions on people by threatening them with death.

The 70 Hebrew Elite altered the texts as part of a Political or Social agenda to achieve a certain goal (and no I'm not sure what goal that might have been).

That raises a host of other issues, including how many times have Old Testament texts been altered for Political or Social reasons?

And of course christians froth at the mouth and fall over backwards because Atheists and Agnostics make truthful and accurate statements like, "The veracity and historical integrity of the Old and New Testaments are questionable."

Well it is questionable and here's proof the texts were altered but there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Did god appear in as a pillar of black smoke, a burning bush or a talking ass and tell the 70 Hebrew Scholars to alter the texts? Or did they all simultaneously dream it? Or did the words magically appear on a wall? Or did one of the prophets prophecize it?

Well if those things happened then the 70 Hebrew Scholars conveniently forgot to mention it, because god having contact with anyone for the first time after an absence of several centuries was apparently a non-event.

The answer to the original question then is:

From the time of Abrahm, circa 2,100 BCE until the about 350 BCE (maybe a little earlier) it was perfectly okay to say the name of God.

At some point around 350 BCE it was no longer acceptable to say the name of God.

The change had nothing to do with respect or tradition, rather it was an attempt by the Hebrew Elite (the priests, rabbis etc) to effect Political or Social change.

One possible reason for implementing Political or Social change is that the Macedonians had conquered the region and the Ptolemies were reigning by 305 BCE so you have to wonder if maybe this wasn't done in deference to the Macedonians?

Palestine would have been flooded with Macedonian administrators to oversee trade, commerce and govern the region. Perhaps there was a conflict with the Macedonian pantheon or Macedonian officials found the name Yahweh repugnant and the Hebrews, in order to appease their new masters, banned speaking the name of god.

Mishna Tractacte Sanhedrin X,1 states that only the high-priest can utter the name of god and only on the Day of Atonement.

Then we have Greek-speaking Hebrews getting together and writing the Old Testament in Greek for Greek-speaking Hebrews circa 250 BCE and the text of Leviticus has this inserted:

“And he that names the name of God, let him die the death,"

And by 150 BCE the practice is still in place for at least some Jews because the Community Rules Scroll (from the Dead Sea Scroll) states:

“Whoever enunciates the Name (which is) honored above all … whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, … or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.”

Note that they're not threatening people with death, but they are barring them from every participating in the Community Council.

What's important here is a change in rulership. The Seleucid Dynasty has driven the Ptolemies out of Palestine and solidified their hold by about 180-170 BCE or so. That gives a little more weight to the theory that the change was to appease the Macedonians/Ptolemies who are no longer running the show.

Pompey destroys the Seleucids in 65 BCE and then Julius destroys the Ptolemies in 31 BCE and the Romans take control of Palestine and the Jews are back to stoning people to death for saying the name of god.

Maybe others have thoughts on the possible Political or Social motives for changing the law.

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Mircea

What kind of gibberish is that?

I do not know what anyone else will do; but, I will be ignoring all future posts by Mircea.

[Jazzymom]

Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan

I do not know what anyone else will do; but, I will be ignoring all future posts by Mircea.

I agree. He has no intention but to cause problems. A non Jew telling Jews about their religion and tradition.

The original question was just why do we leave the o out of G-d. It was answered but apparently not to Mircea's liking. I don't think any answer will be good enough.

The ignore list is a good place for him to be.

[Fullback32]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Obviously the implications are beyond your understanding, but for your amusement I'll summarize the story so far.

No, Mircea, I was following just fine, but thanks for the insult. JM is not the first Jew I've heard say that respect is the reason for leaving out the vowels in the word god. As I am not a believer in Judaism nor Christianity, I suppose I do not care what their traditions are. If, as you say, this tradition started around 250 BCE, then that is still a rather ancient tradition.

Religious traditions change over time. Outside influences on a culture are pretty powerful and old traditions are replaced with new ones. Being an enrolled Comanche, I know this well. There are things we consider "traditional" today, that my ancestors may not recognize if they could see us now. A lot them were started during the reservation period (example: the powwow).This is over a relatively short history of white influence on Indian people. The Jews have had a lot of outside influences on their culture throughout their very long history, so new traditions cropping up does not come as a great surprise to me. I would also submit that Christianity today would be unrecognizable to the 1st Century Christians.

As to the implications...no I get it despite what you may think. There is no question that both the Old and New Testaments have gone through different interpretations, translations and changes in text and practice over the centuries. I guess it's just that if people have a certain belief, I don't bother with it unless they are attempting to convert me. To date, no Jew has ever tried to do that to me, so I leave them to their own beliefs and traditions...old or new.

[Jazzymom]

Originally Posted by Fullback32

No, Mircea, I was following just fine, but thanks for the insult. JM is not the first Jew I've heard say that respect is the reason for leaving out the vowels in the word god. As I am not a believer in Judaism nor Christianity, I suppose I do not care what their traditions are. If, as you say, that this tradition started around 250 BCE, then that is still a rather ancient tradition.

Religious traditions change over time. Outside influences on a cultural are pretty powerful and old traditions are replaced with new ones. Being an enrolled Comanche, I know this well. There are things we consider "traditional" today, that my ancestors may not recognize if they could see us now. A lot them were started during the reservation period (e.g. the powwow).This is over a relatively short history of white influence on Indian people. The Jews have had a lot of outside influences on their culture throughout their very long history, so new traditions cropping up does not come as a great surprise to me. I would also submit that Christianity today would be unrecognizable to the 1st Century Christians.

As to the implications...no I get it despite what you may think. There is no question that both the Old and New Testaments have gone through different interpretations, translations and changes in text and practice over the centuries. I guess it's just that if people have a certain belief, I don't bother with it unless they are attempting to convert me. To date, no Jew has ever tried to do that to me, so I leave them to their own beliefs and traditions...old or new.

Trying to convert others is not a part of Judaism. Those who come to be Jews convert of their own choice. We don't have a tradition of prostelysing. Although we do have a tradition of welcoming the non Jew into Judaism.

We don't have the belief of needing to be Jewish to be saved and we don't put an emphasis on the after life like Christians do. We put an emphasis on this life and how we live our lives and what kind of people we are in this life.

I have always believed that there are many ways to G-d and that I found that my way was within Judaism. I want my children to grow up with an understanding and respect of others and their beliefs and in my house not everyone is Jewish. My oldest son will make up his mind to be or not but what ever he chooses I will support his decision and his path.

I think if we had understanding and respect for others the world would be a much nicer place.

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

Trying to convert others is not a part of Judaism. Those who come to be Jews convert of their own choice. We don't have a tradition of prostelysing. Although we do have a tradition of welcoming the non Jew into Judaism.

The reason for not trying to convert others is that Judaism holds that good people, be they a Jew or a Gentile, will go to Heaven. Other faiths hold that you have to be a member of that faith and believe what that faith believes in order to go to Heaven.

[Boxcar Overkill]

I think I have this riddle solved:

Jazzymom is a Jew.
Jazzymom says she leaves the "o" out because it's a sign of respect.
Who is mircea to disagree?
After all Jazzymom is probably the person most likely know why Jazzymom spells God without an "o".

[Jazzymom]

Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill

I think I have this riddle solved:

Jazzymom is a Jew.
Jazzymom says she leaves the "o" out because it's a sign of respect.
Who is mircea to disagree?
After all Jazzymom is probably the person most likely know why Jazzymom spells God without an "o".

Riddle solved and it was solved several posts ago by many, not just me. Mircea can disagree all mircea wants but he has been told by many Jews he is wrong. Yet he continues to argue with Jews about their Jewish tradition.

It really was just a simple question.......