Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-11-2015, 03:18 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
Reputation: 2227

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
No.
Then I wonder why they would translate it that way...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-11-2015, 03:29 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
In the Tanakh it doesn't specify how many horns (if any). Could be single. Could be multiple. Could be none.

El, motsiam m'mitsrayim, c'toafot re'em lo.

The translation is not direct, it is a traditional translation. Which is an assumption.

If one goes to Deuteronomy 33:17, Psalms 22:21,
Deuteronomy 33 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Horns are specified by the word karnei (or a derivative of it). Yet are not used in Numbers 23:22.

But its usage in the Tanakh may be by context rather than direct translation. Re'em may have been used for multiple types of animals instead of just one.

Thus in the OP, the context is of the power of a re'em and not a re'em itself. In Aramaic within its content its used to mean thunderous (or a type of Gazelle in Arabic).
Hmm, thunderous...
22 God who brought them forth out of Egypt is for them thunderous...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 03:42 AM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,707 posts, read 30,749,085 times
Reputation: 9985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Among the Abramic faiths I am quite certain unicorns only appear in Christian Bibles.
I can not find anything in the Tanakh that can be understood as meaning a one-Horned Horse
But, not being Jewish I rely on interpretations from Jews if I want to know what the Tanakh is saying.
A unicorn is a Greek translation that somehow was corrupted by one leg of Christianity . But as to where the word came from for the Greeks to translate it as such probably meant Rhinoceros Unicornis. The words, real and mythical, both originated in the same region ( Karkadann (Arabic)).

Aramaic stated one thing and it's meaning was carried over to Hebrew and Arabic. The Greeks did their translation and while in Greek it may have meant sense. But when it hit English, it didn't. So I guess when it got re-translated a scribe (or a scholar above him) thought differently and switched to Hebrew to make it sound for palatable for the ears and mind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 03:45 AM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,707 posts, read 30,749,085 times
Reputation: 9985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Hmm, thunderous...
22 God who brought them forth out of Egypt is for them thunderous...
Think of way the characteristics of the animal is described and not the animal itself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Long Island
1,791 posts, read 1,865,608 times
Reputation: 1555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Then I wonder why they would translate it that way...
You have to remember that the "Old Testament" used by most Christians today went from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, then to archaic English. That's a lot of opportunity for words to get twisted, meanings changed, metaphors taken literally......

Scholars believe that the first mistranslation was in the Greek; they weren't familiar with the Hebrew term re'em and substituted monokeros for it. When it was translated into Latin the term was again changed, this time to unicornis (which simply means "one-horned") and could very well have referred to the rhinoceros.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 04:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,078,401 times
Reputation: 7539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Hmm, thunderous...
22 God who brought them forth out of Egypt is for them thunderous...
The Semitic language group--Phoenician, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic ( I think there are more, but forgot them)
Are quite a bit different in structure from the Indo-European languages. I found that nouns don't always stay nouns. they can also be adjectives based upon context.

As an example using the Darija Arabic of Morocco.
Kowee is a noun and means coffee. However it is also often used as an adjective based upon the characteristics of coffee and can mean: Hot, bitter, stimulating, dark-colored, black and probably more. all depending upon the context.

With that line of reasoning I can understand how re'em can be a noun meaning antelope but when I envision a herd of running antelope I can see how thunderous can come to mind.

Just my opinion but based on the idiosyncrasy of the language group, for full understanding one has to use oral tradition.

When you look at the differences in the translation of the Tanakh using oral tradition compared with the Christian version (in the Bible) which does not use oral tradition the importance of oral tradition becomes obvious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 04:47 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Think of way the characteristics of the animal is described and not the animal itself.
I know, that's how I was thinking...I understand the Eastern mind and how their vocabulary relates to how they see things....Hence the root word...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 04:49 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
You have to remember that the "Old Testament" used by most Christians today went from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, then to archaic English. That's a lot of opportunity for words to get twisted, meanings changed, metaphors taken literally......

Scholars believe that the first mistranslation was in the Greek; they weren't familiar with the Hebrew term re'em and substituted monokeros for it. When it was translated into Latin the term was again changed, this time to unicornis (which simply means "one-horned") and could very well have referred to the rhinoceros.
I rely on the Tanakh for my information...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 04:57 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 22,033,127 times
Reputation: 2227
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB from NC View Post
You have to remember that the "Old Testament" used by most Christians today went from Hebrew, to Greek, to Latin, then to archaic English. That's a lot of opportunity for words to get twisted, meanings changed, metaphors taken literally......

Scholars believe that the first mistranslation was in the Greek; they weren't familiar with the Hebrew term re'em and substituted monokeros for it. When it was translated into Latin the term was again changed, this time to unicornis (which simply means "one-horned") and could very well have referred to the rhinoceros.
The way that I was understanding it was that they were brought out with a force that the Egyptians could not control (or tame) like thunder, who can control or tame thunder?...Also as the wild-ox would sound thunderous while moving in a heard, so, somewhere, a root word is used to form many words that have a relation to that root word, but to the abstract Western mind, have no relationship to each other at all...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-11-2015, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Long Island
1,791 posts, read 1,865,608 times
Reputation: 1555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I rely on the Tanakh for my information...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The way that I was understanding it was that they were brought out with a force that the Egyptians could not control (or tame) like thunder, who can control or tame thunder?...Also as the wild-ox would sound thunderous while moving in a heard, so, somewhere, a root word is used to form many words that have a relation to that root word, but to the abstract Western mind, have no relationship to each other at all...
You asked why they would translated it that way.
I answered.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Judaism
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:27 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top