Trains. (Raytown, Union, Pacific: tax, live, bus)

[lifelongMOgal]

Originally Posted by RichMonk

No form of mass transportation is self-sustaining. Airplanes are subsidized, trains (Amtrak and freight) are subsidized, roads/highways are subsidized, and, heck, even our cars are subsidized now. What reason is their to subsidize all these things? Because it has been long understood that individual access to work and entertainment is important to the public good. The more mobility all classes have the greater opportunity there is for employment and economic development.

A transit system will ALWAYS lose money, on paper. However, people, in their blind pursuit of ideology, fail to recognize the greater purpose of a transit system beyond getting me from A to B. If you figure in the economic growth that occurs nears stops (restaurants, offices, and retail) and in transit corridors (high-density residential) the cost of the transit system is more than covered by the added wealth of the community.

My great-grandfather founded one of the early KC streetcar lines over 100 yrs. ago. I understand perfectly the "greater purpose" thank you very much.

The proposed light-rail plans for Kansas City have been wrought with poor planning, the last time servicing mainly an urban core that is without substantial business to attract ridership.

Right now KCMO is facing such a flight and deficits that it is a serious possibilty that 1/2 of the districts schools will be closed. IMO, KCMO has very serious problems it needs to address before light rail. City Council and School Board rid of corruption and willing to do the hard work to keep the city proper from becoming a crumbling ghost-town is more important than "light rail".

[kcmo]

FWIW, the KCMO School District is really a separate issue from KCMO government and even KCMO budget and from what I read, KCMO's city deficit is not near as bad as most large cities and I stand behind my theory that KCMO's budget problem would be much worse today had the city NOT spent hundreds of millions of dollars in the past ten years on downtown, roads, police, fire etc regardless of whether it was funded by tiffs or tax increases.

There is almost nothing the city of KCMO can do to fix the schools short of the state taking over the district and dissolving it. In the mean time, the city can’t just sit around and use the KCMOSD as an excuse to quit re-investing into urban core and city wide projects that have the potential to grow the city, especially when much of the city of KCMO is served by high quality school districts.

You have to do something and right now, that something is fixing the city to get people that don’t have kids a reason to move to KCMO. Believe it or not, people without school age kids are the primary demographic of urban areas and before about the year 2000, KCMO couldn’t even get those people to choose KCMO over the suburbs and that tide has changed. So keep doing the things that attract people and businesses back to the urban core and a solid transit system is one of those things. Again, I’m not talking about 200 miles of light rail. Can KC build a 4 mile starter line to at least create some connectivity in the urban corridor of the city and bring together all the major entertainment and commercial centers such as UMKC, the Plaza, Midtown, Crown Center, Crossroads, Downtown and River Market? Is that really too much to ask of a city?

As you create a city that is attractive to younger people, empty nesters, singles etc, young families will take notice and will move into the city as well (but remain a small part of the population) and will either deal with public schools or pay for private ones. This is a scenario that goes on in EVERY SINGLE major urban area in the country. There is nothing that will fix the schools in KCMO besides creating a city that will bring people into the urban core. Once demographics begin to improve, the schools will start to improve all by themselves, again, something that is also happing in re-emerging cities across the country.

KCMO needs to stop trying to be a suburb in the urban core and do things that will attract people that want to live in the city and compete for urban dweller residents with Denver and Minneapolis while at the same time concentrate on being a suburb in places like North of the river where they are in direct competition with other suburbs.

Do you spend 20 million a year to plow urban streets (somthing few major cities do) just so they are plowed as well as those in the burbs, or do you use that money as an annual debt payment for a 200 million dollar transit starter line so people that live in the city don't have to use a car to get 30 blocks? It's about as dumb as running light rail into the low density northland suburbs where few will use it.

What does all this mean? Figure out away to fund projects like an urban corridor street car / light rail line while also finding ways to fund northland bike trails and what not. Stop trying to be everything to all people. No matter how hard you try, a person that wants to live in Overland Park, is not going to want to live at 37th and Broadway…

[1greatcity]

If KC had a light rail system the last time I visited the city, it sure would have helped me with my situation. Here's my story:
Upon arriving at KCI for a weekend, a friend in town had driven me from the airport to my hotel, located next to I-435 in the far southern portion of the city. But the day before I was to catch my flight home, my friend was in an auto accident, putting that vehicle out of commission. I figured I had better find another way to KCI. First, I located the one nearby car rental place I could find in the yellow pages, which was an Enterprise in Raytown. The company advertises "Pick Enterprise...we'll pick you up!" That's exactly what I needed, so I called them. However, they actually refused to pick me up, saying it was out of their range! So then I figured I would just rely on a taxi. But I was told that the fare to KCI would be outrageous, considering the distance. If there had been a rail system in the city, connecting to KCI, that would have solved my problem. All I would have needed was a short cab ride to the nearest rail stop.
In the end, my friend managed to borrow someone else's vehicle and transported me to the airport.

Your city could really use a passenger rail system. The KC area is so spread out, it would help connect the various areas. The rail system I envision would include a main line running south from KCI, through downtown, south through Westport, ending in the south--perhaps as far as Grandview. A shorter line could run from downtown to OP and beyond. Another line could run from downtown through Independence, where it would split into two legs, one to Blue Springs and one to Lee's Summit.
My city (St Louis) has a similar system in place. The main Metrolink line (the A line) runs from the airport through the northwest suburbs, through downtown, crosses into Illinois and ends in the far-eastern suburbs. This important line also serves UMSL, Washington University and St Louis University, as well as the Barnes Hospital Complex. A second Metrolink line (the B line) begins in the inner southwest suburbs, runs through downtown Clayton (St Louis County seat), passes into St Louis, runs concurrently with the A line into Illinois, then continues past the end of the A line to Scott Air Force Base. Several extensions are proposed for the Metrolink system. An upcoming vote on a sales tax increase will determine whether or not these extensions will be possible.
I have to presume that the delay in launching KC's light rail system is financial; there's an awful lot of money involved. But hopefully KC will find the means to obtain such a system, because it would truly benefit the entire metro area.

[northbound74]

Originally Posted by 1greatcity

I have to presume that the delay in launching KC's light rail system is financial; there's an awful lot of money involved. But hopefully KC will find the means to obtain such a system, because it would truly benefit the entire metro area.

Financial issues are only a small part of the light rail problem in KC. The people and municipalities that have the most resources to do it refuse to have any part of it for the most part. Kansas City can not do it on it's own and there is virtually no cooperation between the cities. Then there's the severe problem with leadership at all levels in KC.
I can see how visitors like yourself would like to have it, but sending a line to the airport at this time would be a enormous financial drain. The thing needs to be able to support itself.

[vb_guy]

The rail line will NEVER support itself, and it doesn't support itself in many other major cities. That doesn't make it any less of a need. Here's an idea: use some of the existing rail lines in the KC area and develop a rail system out of that. It won't eliminate the need to build new rail lines, but it could significantly reduce the number of new lines to be built as well as the cost of the project. If the rail system (not just one line) can be built for a reasonable price, then it becomes worth it. Think about it: one line through KCK to Legends, one line to OP/Olathe/Gardner, one line to Independence/Blue Springs, one line to MCI, one line to the Northlands/Liberty, and one line south through KCMO to Grandview. Other lines can be spliced from those general core lines. Keep in mind, though, that these lines can't all be built at once, or the project is financially unfeasable. Start with one main line and develop from there.

The cooperation between the different municipalities will also be an everlasting chore. I know that the transit authority in Dallas (DART) constantly had issues with community support at first. Now, more and more communities are lobbying for inclusion in DART because of the success of the authority and the expansion of the transit system (both rail and bus). It took quite a few years, but many of the communities are now on the same page.

[OneKC]

Originally Posted by vb_guy

Here's an idea: use some of the existing rail lines in the KC area and develop a rail system out of that.

I think the freight rail companies have said that the current rail system can't support freight (which is supposed to majorly increase over the next few years with fuel prices escalating) as well as passenger rail. I don't know if that's true or if they're just posturing but I would guess we'd need to build additional rails anyway.

[kcmo]

Transit, whether it’s buses, light rail, heavy rail, trolleys, ferries etc does not “support itself” in ANY town. Even in the most dense cities and heavily used systems. Transit is a basic city service, like sewers, bridges, highways, police, fire, parks etc. Fares help pay for the system, but it’s typically less than 25%.

Using existing rail makes some sense, but you have to remember, there is a HUGE difference between light rail and commuter rail (which is what is typically installed in freight track corridors). Sure, it’s much cheaper to run rush hour trains down freight tracks, but also know that a well used commuter line from Olathe or Blue Springs to Union Station will only move about 1000-3000 people a day and they will only service commuters that otherwise have cars. These trains typically only encourage sprawl. Light rail on the other hand in the same corridor will be used by 20,000-50,000 people a day in a MUCH wider spectrum of the population. The trains would run frequently all day and extensively serve the entire corridor of potentially hundreds of thousands of residents plus attractions, like stadiums etc. So yea, light rail cost more, but you get much more in return too. Commuter rail rarely spurs any kind TOD, just parking lots on the commuter end while light rail tends to spur TOD along the route, especially in the city.

Now, you can run light rail in some heavy rail corridors so they have their own right of way. This is how light rail works in Denver and St Louis in some parts of their systems. It would only work in KC along I-35 in Johnson County. Light Rail down I-35 in JoCo alongside the RR tracks would work very well. It’s a densely populated commuter corridor, but it would be very expensive to fit two more tracks in there. BNSF already stated they can’t have commuter trains on the their tracks. KC doesn’t need commuter rail anyway. It’s needs commuter buses and some light rail.

On the MO side, most of the tracks leaving downtown go into heavy industrial areas and migrate away from populated areas, something that does not work well for light rail or even commuter rail really. The only real option is the old Rock Island right of way which goes through Raytown and Lee’s Summit. The track is gone, so light rail could be installed. It has problems too though. Housing is now very close to the right of way and NIMBY’s live there now. Also, once the line gets near the stadiums, it also goes north through the industrial districts rather than through the city so a new right of way would have to be established to somehow link the old right of way to Union Station and even if you did that, you have major problems because the KC Terminal RR canyon which runs behind Union Station cannot be widened and the tracks are too busy to reduce capacity in order to install light rail track. (remember, light rail and commuter rail are totally different animals that run on different tracks.) Heavy Rail like the EL in Chicago or the Metro in DC is also different. There will be no heavy rail in KC, ever. So that’s not an issue.

The bottom line is this topic is FAR more complicated than most know. Everybody has some easy solution to the problem when it’s complicated. Then you throw in other problems like the fact that the best “rail” transit line in metro KC really needs to be somewhere between Olathe and Blue Springs along 70 and 35 where you are dealing with KCMO, Jackson County, Indep, Blue Springs plus all the KS jurisdictions. But that’s where the traffic and population density is to support light rail. Instead KCMO has to try to go to the Northland where traffic and population density will not support light rail in order to get a city wide vote to pass.

Here is my “easy solution” .

Kansas shows little cooperation, so lets’ just forget them for now, they can join in later if they want. Trying to get them involved only creates delays. Instead of a KCMO issue, this should be a Jackson County issue. That way the part of KCMO where light rail should be installed (at this stage) will have a vote and the Northland and KCI issues can be removed from the equation.

Now get Jackson County involved in a better system that will serve much of Jackson County. Also get the suburbs and MoDot involved because this should be combined with the rebuilding of I-70 between Downtown and I-470 much like how the Trex project in Denver combined light rail with a rebuilt and widened I-25. Independence, Blue Springs, Raytown and Lee’s Summit have already stated they support rail transit.

I would build a line from the Plaza (or Brookside) north to Downtown along Main or Broadway then east via the new 70 with a stop at the stadiums among many others. From the stadium area, the line would split, one continuing down 70 to Indy then 40 to Blue Springs and the other jumping into the old rock island right of way to Lee’s Summit.

This would pass a vote in the KCMO portion of Jackson County as well as most suburban areas. It would serve commuters, tourists, ball game traffic, east side residents and the urban commercial corridor of the Plaza to Downtown. For large events or even daily commuting, people could use the sports complex parking lots take the train into the city. This would work. People would vote for it. Johnson County should do the same with I-35. Maybe by hooking into the Jackson County line at the plaza and running down SMP to I-35 where new track could be built along side BNSF to Olathe. It would be expensive, but it could be done.

Running light rail the same distance to KCI? That’s a joke. Spending a billion dollars to run commuter lines on freight tracks is also joke and will only take people off the existing commuter express buses.

Nobody is going to read this are they. Oh well…

Here are some photos I took of Trex in Denver. Something similar could be done here along 70 or 35.

[OneKC]

I endorse the KCMO plan, but my only question is - where are you coming up with the money? I hope you're not using Clay Chastain's figures.

[kcmo]

Find a way. Raise it. Jackson County has VERY low taxes. The country barely even has a government. Jackson Couny has nearly 700,000 people and they act like they have 70,000.

God knows JaCo needs to figure out ways to re-invest and spend some money on itself and bring much of the county out of the 1950's.

The first phase does not need to go all the way to BS and LS. But it should go from the Plaza north to Downtown and then out to the stadiums. That will at least give locals more reasons to use the rail system then a downtown only system would. They could go to ball games or to use the stadium lots for a park and ride and the system will be ready for extensions.

[OneKC]

Originally Posted by kcmo

Find a way. Raise it.

Well that certainly does seem to be the biggest obstacle.