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Seeking opinions on what services people would give up for lower taxes, school sports, clubs, extracurricular activities, school taxes are large portion of bill
It's not so much the salaries of civil servants that kill us tax wise, it's the benefits. Let's say a teacher retires at age 55 with 30 years of teaching. She will probably live another 20 to 30 years receiving a guaranteed pension with medical insurance until he/she dies. The medical premiums alone for that time period are worth 200,000 to 300,000 dollars depending on the plan and the premiums have been rising betweeen 6 and 12% over the past 10 years. With cops, who can directly increase their pensions exponentially by working lots of overtime, the financial hit to the taxpayer is enormous. The salaries are just a piece of spit in the ocean compared to the long term expenses of benefits and pensions. That is what needs to be changed for LIers to regain control of their property taxes.
Read my post. Helloooooo. pay them more? appreciate them more? I smell a teachers spouse or a teacher. To many kids poorley parented? Dont get me started , All teachers think they are allways correct. Sorry but they are not and they are far from perfect. You also state if they have to work "full time" they want more money, why not we should just give them 200k a year. Maybe that will make you happy. Where did you move from? How was the teachers pay there? I bet less. does that mean you or your spouse was poorly prepared to teach? And now you are prepared because you get paid more? take care now
The job will be less attractive if for the same money you require people to do more work. As such, I stated clearly that you would have to sweeten the deal, unless you were comfortable with the idea of lesser prepared teachers.
I like your straw argument, "Appreciate them more? How about we pay them $200,000?" Um. No. How about we pay a starting teacher in Northport more than the average of $36,000. Did you know that 25% of teachers starting work in the Northport system earn less than $31,000? That is very low. That leaves him/her with about $2000 take home at the end of the month. Imagine that with the rents coming in around, um, $2000/month. How about we adjust starting pay to the cost of living on one's own in the area of the school. Why would you want to pay a teacher less?
I never said they were perfect. I just don't think they should do make-work in order to justify to people that they are worth the little they are paid.
My spouse was paid significantly less in Florida. And yes, she was surrounded by underprepared teachers with bad attitudes. Imagine a first grade teacher who shows Disney films half the day (no kidding). Then, surprisingly, because the people running the district didn't trust teachers, none were given the latitude to design or craft curriculum. Curriculum came out of a box, and was prescribed by the district after they'd been lobbied by corporations to purchase their packages. Before we left, my wife quit teaching for two years. After being in charge of her own curriculum in a Chicago school, she couldn't stand the lack of trust and the low pay in Florida.
The job will be less attractive if for the same money you require people to do more work. As such, I stated clearly that you would have to sweeten the deal, unless you were comfortable with the idea of lesser prepared teachers.
I like your straw argument, "Appreciate them more? How about we pay them $200,000?" Um. No. How about we pay a starting teacher in Northport more than the average of $36,000. Did you know that 25% of teachers starting work in the Northport system earn less than $31,000? That is very low. That leaves him/her with about $2000 take home at the end of the month. Imagine that with the rents coming in around, um, $2000/month. How about we adjust starting pay to the cost of living on one's own in the area of the school. Why would you want to pay a teacher less?
I never said they were perfect. I just don't think they should do make-work in order to justify to people that they are worth the little they are paid.
My spouse was paid significantly less in Florida. And yes, she was surrounded by underprepared teachers with bad attitudes. Imagine a first grade teacher who shows Disney films half the day (no kidding). Then, surprisingly, because the people running the district didn't trust teachers, none were given the latitude to design or craft curriculum. Curriculum came out of a box, and was prescribed by the district after they'd been lobbied by corporations to purchase their packages. Before we left, my wife quit teaching for two years. After being in charge of her own curriculum in a Chicago school, she couldn't stand the lack of trust and the low pay in Florida.
Sounds like the type of person you want teaching.
look I know florida schools are bad, no question there. You still do not get the post , I was giving an idea how to save taxes. It is not a popular idea but heck if we all gave the same dumb ideas what would we talk about. and to rebut your post, 2000 take home for a 23 to 24 year old kid starting out of college is not to shabby considering they live at home with mommy and daddy for ever now. If you are older then that then either you started late or you moved here as is your case. if that is the case I am sure your wives pay will increase.she is in the teachers union know? As with any job when you start out or start over you start at the bottom. Why should we pay northport teachers more then the average? average is somewhere in the middle, half are lower half are higher. Your district is lower , I guess someone has to be no? all I was saying was work the whole year for the money , if you add in another 3 months of pay the way it is you get about another 10gs is that bad starting pay 41gs for a full time job? Almost 800 a week to start. and that is the lower of the average. You also state that is 25% of starting teachers make that, But what do they get after 5 years? It sounds to me like sour grapes. You have to start at the bottom that is the way it is. You seem to be complaining about the pay and cost of living here then why stay? You must work also , no? people stuggle starting out or starting over , in time you reap the rewards.That is the way it is. sorry . I still do not understand why the teachers are less prepared if they get paid less? Are you saying they dont give a crap about the kids or teaching because they get paid less? That is a terrable attitude with any job. I would not keep any employee that does less of a job than they should because of pay. No one held a gun to there head to take the job and I am sure they knew the pay when they took the job. We want teachers that want to teach because they like it, not for the cash. I know we all work for money. but some jobs are taken because people love the job even if they dont make the most money. I find it funny how teachers complain about pay , why didnt they check the pay out before going to college to be a teacher? Take care and fret not , you soon will have a high paid teacher in the house.
It's not so much the salaries of civil servants that kill us tax wise, it's the benefits. Let's say a teacher retires at age 55 with 30 years of teaching. She will probably live another 20 to 30 years receiving a guaranteed pension with medical insurance until he/she dies. The medical premiums alone for that time period are worth 200,000 to 300,000 dollars depending on the plan and the premiums have been rising betweeen 6 and 12% over the past 10 years. With cops, who can directly increase their pensions exponentially by working lots of overtime, the financial hit to the taxpayer is enormous. The salaries are just a piece of spit in the ocean compared to the long term expenses of benefits and pensions. That is what needs to be changed for LIers to regain control of their property taxes.
You hit the nail on the head. The reasons you gave are the reasons people want those jobs.
Teachers salaries are not my concern , it's hard enough getting the good ones to stay at the current rate but I do have a much larger issue. I have no children but I pay over $9K annually in school taxes. My wife and I moved to LI from queens with the intentions of starting a family but when we purchased the house (in '05) the school taxes were $4k and total taxes around $8K now we are closing in on $14K. With the additional $500+ per month going to taxes there is absolutely no way we could make ends meet on one salary so we are not looking to have children at this time (we are both nearing our 40's so , this may be our last call). So , I will be paying over $100K in the next 10 years towards SOMEBODY ELSES CHILDS EDUCATION. There has to be some compensation for single owners and families without children because they are creating a huge rift in the demographics with this oversight.
On the comment aimed at "lazy civil servants", I have been a NYC engineer for 20 years and have found tons of incompetence and laziness but trust me , your alternatives would save nothing . The county/village/town workers are generally paid around $8 per hour and do usually cover multiple jobs (i.e.-snow plow in the winter , park work in the summer) and "hiring" prisoners would create huge problems. There is some training involved in all of these jobs and what if the prisoners does a "bad" job , would we fire him , release him? and the amount of cash required to guard prisoners while on "job release" is much much more than the $8 per hour. I may sound like I'm guessing but my department has hired interns (high school/college) , welfare recipients and "low risk prisoners" to do menial labor and it has NEVER worked out to our benefit .... the checks and balances usually cost more than the original savings of labor
Just to touch on the topic of teachers salaries - I have had this debate many, many times with both teachers and non-teaching professionals (I spent 2 summers teaching and would never do it again) and my only point is when they say "We don't have the monies needed to teach the students" my only response is "is a salary increase going to make either you a better teacher or the student more responsive?" if not , then take the funds from the wage pact and place it in "improvements" that they claim are needed. I am a union worker and in the last 2 contracts (8 years) have received just over 11% in wage increases while teachers have received over 35%. If they feel that the needs are somewhere else, they should forego wage increases and let the monies go directly into the school fund (This will never happen because it's not human nature to "try" to place someone in a better position before putting yourself in one first)
Harsh , maybe , but reality
SGC
No offence most of what you say makes sense but I know town workers that make more then 8 an hour. also I know guys that do squat in the winter because they do summer type work. Also I know town workers that retired and what they bring in monthly , and it rivals cops. I never said hire prisoners I said put them to work, How many guards do you need for a dozen guys that are in for stupid crimes that are getting out soon? not many. They can clean parks and the side of the roads, they do it in other states. ever notice other states are not as dirty as ours? Take care
look I know florida schools are bad, no question there. You still do not get the post , I was giving an idea how to save taxes. It is not a popular idea but heck if we all gave the same dumb ideas what would we talk about. and to rebut your post, 2000 take home for a 23 to 24 year old kid starting out of college is not to shabby considering they live at home with mommy and daddy for ever now. If you are older then that then either you started late or you moved here as is your case. if that is the case I am sure your wives pay will increase.she is in the teachers union know? As with any job when you start out or start over you start at the bottom. Why should we pay northport teachers more then the average? average is somewhere in the middle, half are lower half are higher. Your district is lower , I guess someone has to be no? all I was saying was work the whole year for the money , if you add in another 3 months of pay the way it is you get about another 10gs is that bad starting pay 41gs for a full time job? Almost 800 a week to start. and that is the lower of the average. You also state that is 25% of starting teachers make that, But what do they get after 5 years? It sounds to me like sour grapes. You have to start at the bottom that is the way it is. You seem to be complaining about the pay and cost of living here then why stay? You must work also , no? people stuggle starting out or starting over , in time you reap the rewards.That is the way it is. sorry . I still do not understand why the teachers are less prepared if they get paid less? Are you saying they dont give a crap about the kids or teaching because they get paid less? That is a terrable attitude with any job. I would not keep any employee that does less of a job than they should because of pay. No one held a gun to there head to take the job and I am sure they knew the pay when they took the job. We want teachers that want to teach because they like it, not for the cash. I know we all work for money. but some jobs are taken because people love the job even if they dont make the most money. I find it funny how teachers complain about pay , why didnt they check the pay out before going to college to be a teacher? Take care and fret not , you soon will have a high paid teacher in the house.
First, fopt65 deserves his props for a good post. The culprit is pension and health care liabilities.
Still, let's look at the ill-logic of this post. $2000 take home needs to be evaluated in relative terms. In terms of the cost of living in this area, $2000 isn't enough to both put a roof over your head and, well, eat.
Next, the state or municipality should not base its salaries upon assumptions that teachers will live at their parents' house. That is absurd.
As you say, in any job a person starts out at the bottom. But at the bottom should be a floor to support you. Heck, this should be the case with any job. You should be able to support yourself with the salary.
Now, I wasn't saying Northport teachers should be paid more than the national average. The numbers I gave were the average starting salaries in Northport. The average person teaching starts with $36,000, meaning half of these earners make less than $36,000. That isn't enough to get by.
Now, you argue that you want teachers who want to work, not get paid. Are you suggesting that pay isn't an incentive to work? If so, then you are privy to market forces I am ignorant about. Next time you need an attorney, hire the guy who just wants to work. Stay away from the most expensive one you can afford. Why hire the well paid Harvard attorney when you can hire that hard working attorney from Central Wyoming University!
You still don't understand why teachers are less prepared if they are less paid? First, I gave you an example of someone who was well qualified to teach who quit because of the low pay. Second, you will get what you pay for. Teachers aren't charity workers. They have families of their own to provide for, and not in the basements of their parents' house.
Finally, we throw ideas out there for public scrutiny. I was just playing my part, criticizing what appeared to be a bad idea. This isn't sour grapes, either, as you say. My wife is a teacher, but she isn't even in the market for a job. I just know many teachers and happen to understand that they get dumped on each time someone thinks his taxes are too high.
The city puts "prisoners" to work as community volunteers (they clean roadways and parks), they need to be trained a minimum of 24 workhours before starting to actually work ..yes, I know it seems insane to train someone to pick up trash but it's a federal law. So, if you get short timers , they barely get enough training to make any headway in saving money and longer term criminals are not the type of people who generally do good work. Also , it's not only the guard's pay that needs to be taken into account , you need transportation to and from locations, workers' compensation insurance (for part-timers , which is what they would be considered , it's an enormous fee), safety equipment and other peripheral expenses. The fact that it is done in other states has no affect of LI or NYC, we live in a completely different society here and have civil libertarians to answer to at every turn.
If the problem stems from "lifelong" benefits including defined pensions , then what suggestions do you have to change them?
As I stated earlier, I work as a transportation engineer for the NYCDOT, and I make FAR LESS than my counterpart in the private sector. I weighed my options when i entered civil service and decided that the benefit package suited me better than the higher salary. That was a decision that I made , am I happy about it? some days , YES, some days NO! but in the end it was my decision. As is such with teachers , yes I agree that are paid "middle of the road" salaries but they have great benefits .. i.e. - 183 day work per year , defined pensions, and most importantly tenure (try and ask your boss for tenure and see what the response is). So , you weigh your options and make your choice, then you either live with it , or make a new decision... you don't , after getting your first paycheck say "Hey, I need more money to live". If ,as some of my friends who are teachers say, you teach because you love the job ...well, if you love to deliver pizzas and you choose to do that as a profession .... well "live by the sword, die by the sword"
Just venting ,I think teaching is the most difficult career in the world (I taught both HS and college for one year each and would NEVER go back)
Governmental bureacracies , and yes, some school "assets". I am in the Hewlett-Woodmere school district and they recently voted to rebuild the middle school , 2 years ago it received some award for its merits... I'm sure if the building was in need of rebuilding that would have been considered in the award. Also , they keep upgrading fields at a cost of $100K+ , when I went to school , the field I played football on barely had grass and there were spraypainted lines as boundaries ... and through all of that I managed to get an education ...weird huh? (not to gloat but I attended an Ivy league school with almost full scholarship , partly athletic)
I have very little time to attend town/village meetings but when I voice my opinion I am just given the "that's a good suggestion, we'll look into it" line and frankly, with my tight time constraints I don't need to hear that when I voice a legitimate concern. So, yes, I have been beaten down by the system but it is true, you cannot fight city hall ... unless you have some really strong ammunition!
SGC
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I think I was clear.
