What kind of sound advice or words of wisdom can you offer a newcomer or transplant?

[JLR29]

Originally Posted by Nala8

I appreciate your two cents, but if you had taken the time to read the entire thread, you would see that we have already hashed it out. It was never my intention to bash Madison. That's your interpretation. Why not go back now and read the thread, now that you've aired out your assumptions and feelings, which is your right of course. Then the most helpful thing to do, rather than to bash me, would be to offer me and other newcomers--especially those of us dealing with culture shock (google that one, ok?)--some advice. Take care. Reading is fundamental, as that old public service announcement used to say.

I did read the thread. Now I have read it twice to make sure I didn't miss anything. Let me see If I can summarize it. You basically call a city racist and backwards and flighty. It turns into a discussion of race in Madison. Some people agree, some people don't. You complain that race was brought up, even though you did it. People talk some more and then it breaks down into discussion of other things people don't like, including taking kids to grocery stores. I can read quite well and have never really seen where it was "hashed out" and even if it was I can certainly comment on what I thought were erroneous comments.

I stand by my original comment that to imply that a significant amount of the population has never seen a person of color is misleading at best. The fact that it was not dismissed out of hand by most posters made me feel compelled to reply and tell that my experiences were different and would probably fall in line with what most people expect from a city of 200,000 people. I also stated that I thought my experiences (though brief) were different than yours and tried to examine some reasons why you may have voiced them.

Anyone who reads your post should realize that you listed a bunch of things that were not particularly flattering and were backhanded compliments at best (I do not believe they even rose to that level). It was not the experience I had with the town or the people that live there and I thought it would be nice to give a differing point of view.
So, no, I don't have tips for newcomers. But I just wanted to point out that neither did you, just some unflattering claims of unknown veracity.

[Nala8]

Originally Posted by JLR29

I did read the thread. Now I have read it twice to make sure I didn't miss anything. Let me see If I can summarize it. You basically call a city racist and backwards and flighty. It turns into a discussion of race in Madison. Some people agree, some people don't. You complain that race was brought up, even though you did it. People talk some more and then it breaks down into discussion of other things people don't like, including taking kids to grocery stores. I can read quite well and have never really seen where it was "hashed out" and even if it was I can certainly comment on what I thought were erroneous comments.

I stand by my original comment that to imply that a significant amount of the population has never seen a person of color is misleading at best. The fact that it was not dismissed out of hand by most posters made me feel compelled to reply and tell that my experiences were different and would probably fall in line with what most people expect from a city of 200,000 people. I also stated that I thought my experiences (though brief) were different than yours and tried to examine some reasons why you may have voiced them.

Anyone who reads your post should realize that you listed a bunch of things that were not particularly flattering and were backhanded compliments at best (I do not believe they even rose to that level). It was not the experience I had with the town or the people that live there and I thought it would be nice to give a differing point of view.
So, no, I don't have tips for newcomers. But I just wanted to point out that neither did you, just some unflattering claims of unknown veracity.

Then there is no point to continuing our discussion. You seem to be using this thread to air out your own agenda. Be my guest.

[JLR29]

Originally Posted by Nala8

Then there is no point to continuing our discussion. You seem to be using this thread to air out your own agenda. Be my guest.

I have no agenda, just disagreeing with what you posted. That's the point of these boards, right?

[Nala8]

Originally Posted by JLR29

I have no agenda, just disagreeing with what you posted. That's the point of these boards, right?

Yes and no. It is fine to disagree, JLR29, and we all will at times. But, imo, the point of these theads is to raise questions and to answer the questions posed, at least that's why I participate--iow, to raise questions, to find answers, to explore ideas as possibilities. I like the dialogue and constructive ideas that get bounced around, and I don't think that any one person has a handle on the truth. Some of my perspectives have changed since I wrote that original post. I have come to realize, esp. thanks to Megan and gold*dust, that I had made the same mistake I was addressing: Overgeneralizing to the point of stereotyping an entire city, much in the same way that some people stereotype people of color. So interesting... It's a process. I don't think I deserved to be trashed out for asking difficult questions. There is, I believe, a difference between correcting what you believe to be a false idea and trashing out the person who raises the idea. As an educator, writer, and performer I have learned the difference between constructive or helpful criticism--giving and receiving--and just being cruel. I never meant to be hurtful or cruel, and I don't like being on the receiving end of it either.

I appreciate your response, many of your ideas, but hey... Peace.

[gold*dust1]

Originally Posted by JLR29

I have no agenda, just disagreeing with what you posted. That's the point of these boards, right?

I think your posts were fine and brought attention to things I also wondered about. I hope Nala is not offended that I didn't find your contributions offensive or off topic.

[Chelito23]

In Nala's defense, I disagreed with what she wrote initially and responded to it and she was very fair and level headed about what I wrote. I think we all at one time or another have misphrased an idea or thought, I really don't see any malice on her part, I know I have at times written a post and later get called out on it and looking back it may have been a little off even though I never meant for it to be.

I addressed the issue of people here not being exposed to minorities originally because I did find it strange too that no one else reacted to that, so I can understand why JLR felt the need to speak up and it is nice to have someone else reiterate an important point, that all Madisonians have seen minorities before lol. I have a feeling Nala was probably referring more to meaningful relationships with people of different cultures, because just seeing someone is different that having contact with them.

Madison is a unique place, and I think you both have accurate feelings regarding it. Remember, everything is relative and in the eyes of the beholder, but as long as we all share our viewpoints on this board we will ultimately provide a wealth of info. for future newcomers to sort through and balance out for themselves.

[Nala8]

Originally Posted by gold*dust1

I think your posts were fine and brought attention to things I also wondered about. I hope Nala is not offended that I didn't find your contributions offensive or off topic.

No worries, gold*dust. I am not offended. I appreciate different perspectives. I agreed with some of what he said but still find his initial approach or tone unnecessarily harsh, especially since I had already responded to much of what he wrote. My mistake here in the forum is thinking that it should be like a good classroom or school--that is, that once the student, colleague, or administrator gets it, so to speak, there is no need to keep bringing it up or rubbing it in. I think my idealism is working against me, even hurting me in this time of transition, on all counts.

Folks, try to be patient with me as I cycle through this process of idealism, to disillusionment, to reality. Try to remember what was like for you when you first moved to a new place, or an old place that had changed.

[Nala8]

Originally Posted by Chelito23

In Nala's defense, I disagreed with what she wrote initially and responded to it and she was very fair and level headed about what I wrote. I think we all at one time or another have misphrased an idea or thought, I really don't see any malice on her part, I know I have at times written a post and later get called out on it and looking back it may have been a little off even though I never meant for it to be.

I addressed the issue of people here not being exposed to minorities originally because I did find it strange too that no one else reacted to that, so I can understand why JLR felt the need to speak up and it is nice to have someone else reiterate an important point, that all Madisonians have seen minorities before lol. I have a feeling Nala was probably referring more to meaningful relationships with people of different cultures, because just seeing someone is different that having contact with them.

Madison is a unique place, and I think you both have accurate feelings regarding it. Remember, everything is relative and in the eyes of the beholder, but as long as we all share our viewpoints on this board we will ultimately provide a wealth of info. for future newcomers to sort through and balance out for themselves.

Nice post. Bingo. I guess I also find it strange that so few, besides yourself, have picked up on the fact that because of this dialogue I have shifted my perspective. I still think we all have a ways to go, but we are not going to get there by browbeating each other to near death. lol.

I was thinking of deeper relationships. Glad you picked up on that on hindsight. Meaningful friendships, while they certainly can't be forced, would help all of us not to lump each other into stereotypical baskets. Since I posted this thread I have learned, once again (lol), that I can't change the world, nor is it my place; I can only connect with the people in my life, see them for who they are, and let them see me for who I am--one by one. I had drinks last Friday at Jenna's with a new poet friend and coffee yesterday at Ground Zero with a new friend. What came up a lot in both conversations was that right about the time that I wrote the original post I was dealing with a lot of rude wishy-washiness and other behaviors that I had wrongly tried to accept as being, well...Madison. Nope, nope, nope. Too broad of an interpretation. Now, I am having way more fun with people who know how to use a telephone or the internet to make or change arrangements. I am also realizing that sometimes we have to ask for what we need from new or potential friends. I am also seeing now that there are all kinds of reasons why a person might stare openly--some very sweet reasons. Such a relief. I am no hermit.

Madison, I've been thinking, is a diverse city--not nec. in terms of racial diversity but definitely in terms of cultural, economic, etc. differences--even where we all come from. It may not be possible to get a pulse on Madison as a whole. Still, as a relative newcomer, I am still open to tips, suggestions, words of wisdom, yadda yadda on everything from social customs, to grocery shopping, to job searching in these "interesting times," to where a woman of a certain age (in my forties) who is still a young hippy at heart can go out and have fun, etc. etc. etc. I may raise difficult issues at times, but I have never been a one issue wonder, and I never meant to hurt anyone.

Peace, everyone. Sorry I rose so many hackles. I keep forgetting somehow that how I was raised (to openly discuss socio-political issues), growing up on Air Force bases (very diverse, international, etc.), and where I came from most recently (NYC for goodness sake, probably one of the most opinionated places you could ever visit, in large part) have not prepared me for how sensitive these issues are elsewhere. Mea culpa, or as many of my young students might say, "My bad."