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Our society is marching onward, and the education that our children receive should be kept as up-to-date as possible.
I am not comfortable with expecting the government to shoulder so much of the family's burden.
To me 'institutions' tend to be 'bad' things.
IMHO sending anyone to a government institution without judicial process seems wrong.
I have never trusted the government's motives when it comes to child education, and it only got worse when we had children attending such an institution.
Since Apple is willing to provide laptops for such a low price to the government [and obviously still make their profit even after factoring in on-going repairs]; they should likewise be willing to provide the same deal to the public.
So every child could have access to this technology. Not just the institutionalized children.
Oh forest you devil! Now you've gone and wedged me between another rock and a hard place. Well said. There are many who don't trust the government's motive when it comes to education. One of them would be Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt who wrote The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail. In short, she served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement and the US DOE during the Reagan administration (well, until she blew the whistle on a technology initiative related to curriculum). By the way, she also served as a director on the school board in Camden, among other Maine educational pursuits.
As in most books of this nature, there is plenty to agree and disagree with (I haven't even gotten through the first 50 pages yet, but it's intriguing nonetheless). It's available online for free. I've misplaced the link, you can google her name to find the site.
Some of the stuff I've read seems eerily familiar as it relates to technology, but I haven't read enough yet, and that's off topic so I'm hushing up .
At the VFW I also see/hear that attitude from many of the members. It keeps the younger vets from feeling comfortable there.
Our society is marching onward, and the education that our children receive should be kept as up-to-date as possible.
I am not comfortable with expecting the government to shoulder so much of the family's burden.
To me 'institutions' tend to be 'bad' things.
IMHO sending anyone to a government institution without judicial process seems wrong.
I have never trusted the government's motives when it comes to child education, and it only got worse when we had children attending such an institution.
Since Apple is willing to provide laptops for such a low price to the government [and obviously still make their profit even after factoring in on-going repairs]; they should likewise be willing to provide the same deal to the public.
So every child could have access to this technology. Not just the institutionalized children.
You're preaching to the choir here. They love to cater to taxpayer financed institutions because they know there is no bidding competition for future contracts.
As I understand it, the towns will spend about $240 per laptop, per student and will be responsible for the maintenance contract. What will happen when this taxpayers money is long spent and it will be time to "upgrade?"
We already spend over $3 million annually here, to indoctrinate about 200 students.
Oh forest you devil! Now you've gone and wedged me between another rock and a hard place. Well said. There are many who don't trust the government's motive when it comes to education. One of them would be Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt who wrote The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail. In short, she served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement and the US DOE during the Reagan administration (well, until she blew the whistle on a technology initiative related to curriculum). By the way, she also served as a director on the school board in Camden, among other Maine educational pursuits.
As in most books of this nature, there is plenty to agree and disagree with (I haven't even gotten through the first 50 pages yet, but it's intriguing nonetheless). It's available online for free. I've misplaced the link, you can google her name to find the site.
Some of the stuff I've read seems eerily familiar as it relates to technology, but I haven't read enough yet, and that's off topic so I'm hushing up .
Two of my grandparents were Grammar school teachers before the government got into the business of institutionalizing education, and trying to usurp parental duties.
My parents, aunts and uncles were all taught in grammar schools.
In my family, my generation was the first to attend a tax-funded school.
When I was a child, my parents were very active with the school board and PTA. Their fights with the school system were massive.
With our children, we saw everyone sending their children to public-schools, so we followed the trend. We thought that it was our child's failure to thrive in that environment, and not the institution's failure.
Finally after he had attended 2 grades of public-funded schooling, when we decided to begin homeschooling our eldest child, my parents and my grand parents fully supported our decision.
We tried the public-funded method again with our second child, but were eventually forced to homeschool him as well. A school shrink once told us that he would never be capable of receiving an education, due to his disability. Though later he did attend a public-funded highschool.
And we had foster-children who had no other options available to them, they were forced to attend the institutions. The state social workers refused to allow any other options. However after each foster child was held back a grade level, we were finally allowed to begin homeschooling them over the summers. Via homeschooling we got our foster-children caught up and back to their appropriate grade-levels.
Behind the public institutions lay many documented motives, few of which are appropriate. And none of them include that a child learn to read, to write, perform math skills or to think for themselves.
When I see more money being dumped into such a failure of a system, I have to wonder at the motive behind such waste.
By all means I am in favour of exposing children to current technology.
One grade-level of textbooks can be bought for $150, and can be used repeatedly for many years. Yet we spend an average of $8500 per pupil per year in this nation [my numbers are likely out of date].
IMHO, buying a $500 laptop for each child to use through-out all of his primary education would be a good idea.
I am not sure that the government is within it's proper boundaries when it usurps parental duties.
Behind the public institutions lay many documented motives, few of which are appropriate. And none of them include that a child learn to read, to write, perform math skills or to think for themselves.
When I see more money being dumped into such a failure of a system, I have to wonder at the motive behind such waste.
By all means I am in favour of exposing children to current technology.
One grade-level of textbooks can be bought for $150, and can be used repeatedly for many years. Yet we spend an average of $8500 per pupil per year in this nation [my numbers are likely out of date].
IMHO, buying a $500 laptop for each child to use through-out all of his primary education would be a good idea.
I am not sure that the government is within it's proper boundaries when it usurps parental duties.
I agree. I also think that much of the waste can be directly attributable to the fact that most pedagogy tends to be "faddish," the government, establishment, or whatever else one wants to call it, also tends to use kids as guinea pigs for the latest rage of educational epiphanies - such that happened with "whole language" vs. "phonics", "new math" and "new, new math," etc...
There were laws passed that require a school update their textbooks within a perimeter of no less than 5 years. My understanding of that was because if the publisher were to change out the texts every year, then budgets would be busted all over. I'm reasonably certain that the texts are more than $150 per grade level, but I'd have to verify that one...
Workbooks, or "consumables" are one segment that has grown as they are ordered each year - usually in 2 volumes (and I don't know about anyone else with kids, but most come home here blank due to a lack of physical time to finish them).
I wonder if the laptops would fall under that type of plan as well?
Then there's the ever-changing, "wait, hold on a minute" we've got "Cutting-edge technology" here (latest update 10 minutes ago), so I wonder how "upgradeable" those laptops would be? Hopefully that's already figured in...I assume it is anyway.
Be that as it may, children will need to be proficient in computer technology (although I think most have been thoroughly indoctrinated into it now as evidenced by how well they use it). I think it's more a matter of being able to find the least expensive way to provide it.... That oughta be fun.
Last edited by cebdark; 03-13-2009 at 09:06 PM..
Reason: I don't need that -ing!
Personally, I don't think it will do the students much of a big favor because these are Mac laptops, not PCs. Windows-based operating systems are more widely used, and in college if you submit assignments online they have to be in Microsoft Word Format. Colleges and universities primarily use PCs, not Mac, and if a student's only computer experience is using a Mac, and that could be a disadvantage.
You are aware that MS makes Office for the Mac and that both the Mac and PC version are compatible with each other and they have been since what, 2003, not to mention that OpenOffice is compatible with Word on both platforms as well.
Depending on the college, some online courses might require Windows, and some computer science and digital media courses require Windows, but other than that it does not matter what kind of computer or OS you use on campus.
Why do the kids get this chit? Why not college students?
It irks me that a state that cannot (or just plain doesn't) fix all of the darn potholes around town can afford to give a bunch of kids free computers.
Do the students get to keep these computers, or do they have to return them when they leave school? I mean wouldn't they be state property? Are the parents responsible for repairs? Replacements? 100,000 laptops in the hands of teenagers...I'll bet that 30,000 of them are going to go 'missing'.
Another thing is that the school could place parental controls on these laptops limiting the web-based access that they would have and since each computer has its own unique id (like a finger print) it would not be that hard for the schools to record these and monitor student usage.
A final thought just occurred to me, and I am sure that this is something that everyone has heard when they were young; the kids these days have it easy. I have now just officially transcended into adulthood.
Last edited by K-Luv; 03-13-2009 at 09:59 PM..
Reason: 42
I agree. I also think that much of the waste can be directly attributable to the fact that most pedagogy tends to be "faddish," the government, establishment, or whatever else one wants to call it, also tends to use kids as guinea pigs for the latest rage of educational epiphanies - such that happened with "whole language" vs. "phonics", "new math" and "new, new math," etc...
There were laws passed that require a school update their textbooks within a perimeter of no less than 5 years. My understanding of that was because if the publisher were to change out the texts every year, then budgets would be busted all over. I'm reasonably certain that the texts are more than $150 per grade level, but I'd have to verify that one...
Workbooks, or "consumables" are one segment that has grown as they are ordered each year - usually in 2 volumes (and I don't know about anyone else with kids, but most come home here blank due to a lack of physical time to finish them).
I wonder if the laptops would fall under that type of plan as well?
Then there's the ever-changing, "wait, hold on a minute" we've got "Cutting-edge technology" here (latest update 10 minutes ago), so I wonder how "upgradeable" those laptops would be? Hopefully that's already figured in...I assume it is anyway.
Be that as it may, children will need to be proficient in computer technology (although I think most have been thoroughly indoctrinated into it now as evidenced by how well they use it). I think it's more a matter of being able to find the least expensive way to provide it.... That oughta be fun.
Again, we run into this faulty logic that since public education has its issues, that ALL things to do with public education are inherently flawed...
Two things about "faddish" things eagerly adopted by the educational system.
1. Computers aren't a fad...they are here, they are here to stay. Kids need to know how to use them. If there is ONE thing the Maine education system can throw money at, it would be computers.
2. Public education, like the government, is an experiment. People like to think of them as static things, but neither are. Education (and government for that matter) need to constantly evolve, try new things, keep the good stuff and get rid of the bad stuff. I guess this naturally leads to some folks saying "Back in MY day they did it this way...". Well frankly, its not YOUR day anymore! (no offense, just sayin...)
It irks me that a state that cannot (or just plain doesn't) fix all of the darn potholes around town can afford to give a bunch of kids free computers.
I love it!....This quote right here really gets to the heart of this issue regarding the educational system in Maine (and the country for that matter)...
We all say we want our district/state/country to have THE BEST educational system in the world...but when it comes down writing that check we are more worried about our car's tire rims and the alignment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv
A final thought just occurred to me, and I am sure that this is something that everyone has heard when they were young; the kids these days have it easy.
Why do the kids get this chit? Why not college students?
Can you hear it now? Why do the college students get these computers? Why not every other adult? Why college students? College is optional, if you want to go, buy your own laptop. Someone is always going to complain. If we don't provide laptops to keep our students up to date and competitive someone's going to complain about that too.
Quote:
It irks me that a state that cannot (or just plain doesn't) fix all of the darn potholes around town can afford to give a bunch of kids free computers.
Who's kid is getting a free computer at school? That's like saying they get free desks, free chalk and free text books.
Quote:
Do the students get to keep these computers, or do they have to return them when they leave school?
No, they don't get to keep school property. The computers are leased, as was talked about earlier in this thread. You don't keep leased equipment.
When our elementary school's laptops were replaced the first time the older machines were offered for sale. The second time they handed the machines down to the fifth and sixth graders.
Quote:
Are the parents responsible for repairs? Replacements? 100,000 laptops in the hands of teenagers...I'll bet that 30,000 of them are going to go 'missing'.
Does anyone know what the lease says about repairs? My personal experience doesn't back up a third of our students being thieves but my personal experience is limited to kids I know. Is it really a fact that nearly a third of our students are thieves?
Quote:
Another thing is that the school could place parental controls on these laptops limiting the web-based access that they would have and since each computer has its own unique id (like a finger print) it would not be that hard for the schools to record these and monitor student usage.
That's a good thing in my opinion.
Quote:
A final thought just occurred to me, and I am sure that this is something that everyone has heard when they were young; the kids these days have it easy. I have now just officially transcended into adulthood.
You just aged yourself 100 years. Should we get a walker for you? How about hearing aids? I'd offer bifocals but I'm not amused by that for personal reasons. I'm sure my arms have gotten shorter in recent years. Remember when you walked ten miles up hill in a snow storm to get to school? Those were the days!
I am having a hard time reading some of the posts and not getting angry. There is plenty of blame to go around including ( mostly in my mind ) parents and students and the "fads" that come and go. I will defend my profession if I feel someone is way off base, but this isn't the thread for a school philosophy discussion.
The laptops are good tools. My previous post included info about the costs, where the money comes from and what many schools are doing with the machines. Apparently people either didn't read it or didn't comprehend.
Money for the laptops is coming from existing state funds. Schools can choose laptops or roughly $285 per students in a technology fund that they can use as they wish. While occasionally a laptop will go missing, we have lost very few in the several years the program has been going. At the end of the 3 year lease, the computers are either returned to Apple or purchased by the school. We purchased at roughly $50 ( i think ) per computer. While some use of the laptops has been limited to finding info on internet and simple writing, there are many other exciting things that can be done...CAD, 3D modeling, systems modeling, analysis of data, finding up to date information (10 year old science text could be considered antique), artwork, music, videos, discussions with students from other parts of state or world, lessons from leaders in subjects from around the world, etc.
MANY more books disappear each year than laptops, yet there is little outcry.
The entire state budget is a mess, thus the apparent lack of funds for things such as roads. Nothing from the government is free - it comes from taxes. Taxes that people have to pay - or - redistribution of wealth from one group to another (i keep hearing that 40% of americans don't pay federal taxes). Perhaps cutting education funds by 25% and move that to roads? But where would you cut education? 25% cut would mean about 25 teaching positions in my school - or increasing class sizes to 35ish? Would you want your child in a class of 35? Would you want to teach 35 15 year olds? Would you do that for $15/hour? Again - another thread discussion.
Too many years of one party control in Augusta and liberal thinking has ballooned the budget. Maybe time to kick them out and try another approach? How about some "change we can believe in?"
Again, we run into this faulty logic that since public education has its issues, that ALL things to do with public education are inherently flawed...
Two things about "faddish" things eagerly adopted by the educational system.
2. Public education, like the government, is an experiment. People like to think of them as static things, but neither are. Education (and government for that matter) need to constantly evolve, try new things, keep the good stuff and get rid of the bad stuff. I guess this naturally leads to some folks saying "Back in MY day they did it this way...". Well frankly, its not YOUR day anymore! (no offense, just sayin...)
No offense taken - I love a good debate... I'm a "teflon Donna" as far as taking anything personally. As far as "faulty logic" - that I have to respectfully disagree with that as I see "faulty logic" in education, personally, time and time again. Yes, I do realize that education is constantly evolving. I don't have my head stuck in a cave by any means.
I will say however, that I don't like the fact that my children are being essentially used as "guinea pigs" for new pedagogy (particularly when the "new" pedagogy is something that so clearly didn't work back "in my day.") I guess I just overstated my opinion (easy to do on message boards where one isn't face-to-face I guess). That's off topic, so I'll drop that one.
At any rate, I am well aware that computers are here to stay, and I do agree that it's necessary to teach our children how to use them. All I ask for in this laptop initiative is clarity and transparency with regard to how much is being spent. In other words, keep it real.
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Now you've gone and wedged me between another rock and a hard place. 
Well said. There are many who don't trust the government's motive when it comes to education. One of them would be Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt who wrote The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail. In short, she served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement and the US DOE during the Reagan administration (well, until she blew the whistle on a technology initiative related to curriculum). By the way, she also served as a director on the school board in Camden, among other Maine educational pursuits.
), so I wonder how "upgradeable" those laptops would be? 
I guess I just overstated my opinion (easy to do on message boards where one isn't face-to-face I guess). That's off topic, so I'll drop that one. 
