Title V (Title 5) Septic Tanks and buying a home in MA (Sudbury: how much, contractors)

[tigerclaws]

Listen to others. By MA law, the seller is required to give you a "passed title V" before the sale can close. You should take advantage of this law to have the seller do the same. I would even do an inspection after this is done just to make sure everything is in compliance.

Hope this helps.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by gf2020

The seller is required by law to make the system compliant or install a new system.

If there are sufficient funds from the proceeds of the sale, those funds can be held in escrow to pay for the installation of a new system post closing.

This is a pretty common situation. Any realtor or closing attorney in the area should be familiar with the process.

The seller actually has two years to bring the system into compliance. The state's website actually has a great FAQ page on Title V. I believe this is it:

Septic Systems/Title 5 | MassDEP

So, failing the test doesn't really put them "under the gun" so to speak.

As you say though, failing Title V happens all the time and any competent real estate agent and real estate attorney can guide you through handling such a situation.

Originally Posted by Austin023

it might even be a cesspool...are those even passable anymore? (the house I grew up in had one).

Cesspools can still pass but it doesn't happen often. Most people hear cesspool and just go right ahead and install a new system. You really don't want a cesspool though as already stated.

Originally Posted by tigerclaws

Listen to others. By MA law, the seller is required to give you a "passed title V" before the sale can close. You should take advantage of this law to have the seller do the same. I would even do an inspection after this is done just to make sure everything is in compliance.

Hope this helps.

This is not true. The law only states that the seller must have performed Title V in order to pass title. If the system fails Title V then the system must be brought into compliance within two years of failing the test. Title can still pass if the test is failed, but it would be exceedingly difficult to find a lender which will give you a conventional load on a house with a bad septic system. Mostly homes with failed systems pass title through a cash deal or a construction loan.

[Austin023]

Ok thanks for the answers everyone, appreciate it.
Where I am looking most houses have septic and quite a few have wells and septic, which I am fine with as I have lived in and owned houses with both before so I know what is involved.

No, I would not want a cesspool either. I recall the one that was present in the house we lived in, right outside Boston started to have trouble--drains began to back up sometimes and such one winter. The only plan available, dating to the 1920s was drawn on a yellowed sheet of paper with a rough sketch of it in relation to house, outbuildings and other components, nothing more.
Well, with the snow melt in the spring we found out exactly why it was having issues: part of the wall to the cesspool had started to cave in---it was built out of stone. So, my parents had it replaced--that cost about $18,000 or so, in 1999.

All of the houses I am looking at are older so such a situation is not that surprising and I am prepared to deal with it if necessary (though I'd rather now of course but this seems like a common enough problem), but I just wonder how much this can be rolled into the sale price--or would replacement just have to be accepted as an added expense on top of sale? I am using cash for purchase of house.

[wheelz]

If I were a buyer I would not even have to think about who was going to absorb the expense of replacing the system. I would negotiate the price of the house as if the system was up to snuff and then tack on the expense of a new system and deduct that as well. If the seller doesn't prove to me they are fully prepared to sell me a house that includes a system that passes Title V, I would end my negotiations right then and there. Obviously, the choice is yours, but that is how I would do it.

[brightdoglover]

If the house has not been continuously inhabited, the standards for passing might be more stringent (I'm not positive- it is if you want a building permit to redo a house that has been empty).

I'm sure a cesspool would not pass anywhere.

Call the board of health in whatever town you are looking at, and the state DPH for that town. Don't take opinion, get facts. It can be an utter mess to get a new permit. If a seller has an approved plan/permit *in hand*, it's a matter of the finances, but if you have to go about getting a plan and a permit, well, life is too short. Trust me on this.

When I got my new system (under "maximum feasible compliance") I got a $1500 tax credit each year for four years under Mass. state taxes. I think that is still in operation.

[Austin023]

One thing that I hear often is someone buys a house and they want to get the system pumped and they do not know where the hatch cover is to gain access (not uncommon for it to be buried). Any house I look at which has a septic I always ask and note where that is (when known) and where the tank/leach field is too....always a good idea to know that.

Neighbors of mine had bought the house next door, it was a young couple and their first house. They didn't like the shortness of the driveway (just stopped on side of the house) so they extended it about 15 feet so it curved a bit onto the back yard of the house. What they did not realize was part of the leach field was under that area. After a few years they started to have serious septic problems, and eventually it failed.

[tikaram]

Originally Posted by Austin023

Neighbors of mine had bought the house next door, it was a young couple and their first house. They didn't like the shortness of the driveway (just stopped on side of the house) so they extended it about 15 feet so it curved a bit onto the back yard of the house. What they did not realize was part of the leach field was under that area. After a few years they started to have serious septic problems, and eventually it failed.

That is a very sad situation, and I'm sorry your neighbors got into it, yet unfortunately it's their fault, or rather their shortsightedness rather than the fact that they have own septic. Did they extend the driveway themselves, or did they hire someone for very cheap? Any decent contractor doing this work would absolutely ask them where the septic is located (both actual tank and the leach field)

Actually, anyone doing work on your property has to inquire about location of the septic. If they have to bring a dumpster, or bring heavy machinery (say to cut your trees etc), they ALWAYS ask about exact location of septic tank and leach field.

As long as septic system is regularly maintained, there's little to worry about, I would say. It also is cheaper to run than having town water / sewer. Of course we are talking about regular bill, not replacement or updating of the system.

One issue one might run into is - as you mentioned - any work done on the parcel. Any new addition to the house, garage, shed, driveway etc has to be built around the system so to speak.

Another issue - building additions to the house. If you want to add a wing with 2 more bedrooms, or built up a story (again with couple of bedrooms), etc - your current septic size should be appropriate. You may need to upgrade the size of your septic to pass the inspection. Even if you say that your water consumption is very low, or will not increase after you build the extra rooms and you live "green" etc - it does not matter. The system most likely will have to be upgraded, and that a lot of added cost.

[wheelz]

Originally Posted by tikaram

Actually, anyone doing work on your property has to inquire about location of the septic. If they have to bring a dumpster, or bring heavy machinery (say to cut your trees etc), they ALWAYS ask about exact location of septic tank and leach field.

COMPLETELY untrue! It is entirely the home owners responsibility, not the contractors to know and advise the hired contractor or dumpster/container deliverer where their own septic tank/leach field is located. Most companies would more than likely ask the property owner about these details, but it is not a law that they do. In fact, every company, sometimes in fine print ,will flat out tell you they are "not responsible for damages beyond the curb. "

[Austin023]

Originally Posted by tikaram

That is a very sad situation, and I'm sorry your neighbors got into it, yet unfortunately it's their fault, or rather their shortsightedness rather than the fact that they have own septic. Did they extend the driveway themselves, or did they hire someone for very cheap? Any decent contractor doing this work would absolutely ask them where the septic is located (both actual tank and the leach field)

Actually, anyone doing work on your property has to inquire about location of the septic. If they have to bring a dumpster, or bring heavy machinery (say to cut your trees etc), they ALWAYS ask about exact location of septic tank and leach field.

As long as septic system is regularly maintained, there's little to worry about, I would say. It also is cheaper to run than having town water / sewer. Of course we are talking about regular bill, not replacement or updating of the system.

One issue one might run into is - as you mentioned - any work done on the parcel. Any new addition to the house, garage, shed, driveway etc has to be built around the system so to speak.

Another issue - building additions to the house. If you want to add a wing with 2 more bedrooms, or built up a story (again with couple of bedrooms), etc - your current septic size should be appropriate. You may need to upgrade the size of your septic to pass the inspection. Even if you say that your water consumption is very low, or will not increase after you build the extra rooms and you live "green" etc - it does not matter. The system most likely will have to be upgraded, and that a lot of added cost.

From what I can recall (and this was about 18 years ago now) the couple extended the driveway using a local contractor. One thing I did forget to add was in addition to that, right around that same time the husband dug a trench in that same area, from the house's basement wall out diagonally about 15 feet and put in a perforated drain hose for the sump pump!
The drive was extended over that area later that same year. So, you had two things going against the leach field.....these houses were built in the early 1920s as a pair---their house used to be a "guest house" of ours but later they were split. Their lot was pretty small and narrow, so not much room to do what they wanted I guess.....but that is why it is always so important to know where these things are.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by wheelz

COMPLETELY untrue! It is entirely the home owners responsibility, not the contractors to know and advise the hired contractor or dumpster/container deliverer where their own septic tank/leach field is located. Most companies would more than likely ask the property owner about these details, but it is not a law that they do. In fact, every company, sometimes in fine print ,will flat out tell you they are "not responsible for damages beyond the curb. "

I think they're thinking of the "Dig Safe" laws (Dig Safe System, Inc. - MA ME NH RI VT - Call 811) we have here in MA. I believe they only apply to public utilities not a private utility like a septic system or a well but I'm not 100% sure on that.