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Even when the move was to Providence or later potentially building a new stadium in Pawtucket, there was plenty of ill will around the ask for a public handout.
Again, most of the tickets are 11-14 dollars. Children/Seniors even less.
These are Big Mac prices. On any given weekend in Central MA, families are paying 8 bucks for a single pint of craft beer while their kids run around annoying all the DINKs. To think these same people will choke on an 8 dollar ticket for their kid is laughably out of touch with the current costs of anything.
You seem to be misrepresenting the ticket prices. From what I'm seeing, the $8 and $9 tickets appear to be behind the outfield wall. The majority of seats that aren't behind the outfield wall are $11 to $18 when purchasing season tickets. Obviously they will be priced higher for individual games. You'll also have to pay for parking and a "stadium facility fee". I'd guess it will likely cost a family twice as much to go to a WooSox game (as opposed to a PawSox game).
I'm not sure why you feel the price of craft beer in Central MA is relevant here, but FYI the price is the same or higher in Providence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried
If there's a demand issue, I'm very doubtful it will be price driven. There could be a very real lack of demand for minor baseball in general. We'll see, but I do know all these these rose-colored memories of a family-filled McCoy are not what McCoy has been for at least a decade. Attendance numbers, even when inflated, were absolutely dismal. Worcester could very well end up in the same spot.
I never said it was filled; I said it was a family environment. I am puzzled as to why you think that changed during the past decade...because it didn't. Have you ever actually been to McCoy? I ask because a lot of what you're saying just isn't accurate.
And that Bigglesworth dude is correct. The demand (high or low) for PawSox tickets was directly related to the demand for Boston tickets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried
I'm honestly going off seasonal averages. They've been well below league average for over a decade.
Pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect location and immediate amenities of McCoy had some impact on the crowd size and demographics. Demographics of the immediate neighboring towns likely also played a part. Towns like Shrewsbury, Boylston, Holden, etc. have a higher median income than towns like Lincoln or even Smithfield.
Data suggests the majority of minor league attendees are within a 10-20 minute driving range and, unfortunately for Pawtucket, the immediate surrounding areas are relatively low income. Worcester may be a lesser metro area (no argument from me), but it's suburbs are wealthier/more educated ... the dominant demographic of baseball.
People came from all over to go to McCoy. You'd be just as likely to see people from Bristol or Warwick as you would be to see people from Pawtucket or Cumberland.
I just don't understand why you seem to think ghetto people went to McCoy. Or why you seem to think wealthy people will be at Polar Park. Neither is accurate.
People came from all over to go to McCoy. You'd be just as likely to see people from Bristol or Warwick as you would be to see people from Pawtucket or Cumberland.
I just don't understand why you seem to think ghetto people went to McCoy. Or why you seem to think wealthy people will be at Polar Park. Neither is accurate.
Where did I say the attendees were ghetto? No where. Location? No, not ghetto or dangerous but it is a lower income working class neighborhood with little draw or appeal. What I'm saying is tons of research has confirmed what baseball's core audience is - educated middle to upper middle class whites. 25-45 primary, 50-61 secondary.
Thanks to RI's dismal job market, families in eastern Worcester county and western Middlesex county have been seeing better wage growth and retention than Providence/Kent county despite Providence being the larger and more compelling metro area.
If I were a Red Sox exec I'm not sure I'd bet the future of my team on Worcester, but I'm certain they reviewed the demographics of the area and thought it was a good fit. And yes, you do need 'wealthy' people to make these things viable ... lower income families, no matter how cheap the tickets are, have neither the time, capital, or interest to attend a baseball game ... the stats state as much.
Where did I say the attendees were ghetto? No where. Location? No, not ghetto or dangerous but it is a lower income working class neighborhood with little draw or appeal. What I'm saying is tons of research has confirmed what baseball's core audience is - educated middle to upper middle class whites. 25-45 primary, 50-61 secondary.
The research studies concerning upper class whites that you cite are far more relevant to MLB baseball than to the minors.
You continually bring up the fact that the Pawtucket location was not attractive to many because the surrounding area did not offer certain amenities. It would seem by your posts that going to other establishments for food and drink as part of a ball game trip is important to YOU. Your need however does not correlate to the majority of fans that have historically been going to games at McCoy for decades. Many of the patrons were young families and retirees that were very budget conscious. They wanted low ticket and concession prices with plenty of free parking nearby. Their objective was just going to the games and enjoying the ballpark experience. They were not looking to drop serious money going out before and after the game at nearby restaurants and bars.
The Worcester ballpark seems to fit in more with what you may want. It even appears that Polar Park is being targeted to you and the young twenty something crowd and upper class whites. It however remains to be seen how this will work out in the long term. As you seem to like studies on demographics, this future target audience may prove somewhat problematic. First off, as you yourself have repeatedly noted, younger people don't really passionately follow baseball much anymore with interest waning each successive year. The other target group of upper class whites is also fast shrinking (especially as a % of the total) as the nation further diversifies. It could be a big gamble banking on these segments to build a business model on.
The research studies concerning upper class whites that you cite are far more relevant to MLB baseball than to the minors.
My comments are driven by data taken from studies funded to evaluate the viable of minor league teams/ballparks. I'd agree that those demographics are likely even more dominant within the MLB fan base, but the data does suggest it's relevant to both major and minor leagues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMS02760
The Worcester ballpark seems to fit in more with what you may want. It even appears that Polar Park is being targeted to you and the young twenty something crowd and upper class whites. It however remains to be seen how this will work out in the long term. As you seem to like studies on demographics, this future target audience may prove somewhat problematic. First off, as you yourself have repeatedly noted, younger people don't really passionately follow baseball much anymore with interest waning each successive year. The other target group of upper class whites is also fast shrinking (especially as a % of the total) as the nation further diversifies. It could be a big gamble banking on these segments to build a business model on.
Agreed and it's why I would have not have advocated for a minor league baseball stadium within the city. At least Worcester is receiving some federal/state money and cleaning up a rather nasty brown field in the process, but I still think the sport will see negative demand growth moving forward unless fairly radical changes to the game/broadcasting are made ... something the MLB and it's diehard fan base have resisted time and time again.
From a Red Sox ownership perspective, they seemed to get the best possible deal: tax payer funding and access to ... in theory ... a reasonably strong population of the core targeted fan base (i.e., Millenial and Gen Z singles and families). Hopefully for them and more importantly Worcester it works out, but I wouldn't necessarily bet millions on it.
I mean that just sounds like the PawSox were popular when the Red Sox were popular. That decade is getting farther away now
The best years attendance wise (averaging over 9k in a 10K capacity park for some 140 games) for the PawSox were in the decade after the McCoy Stadium renovation AND at a time when the parent Boston Red Sox were probably at the height of their popularity. The regional demand and tv ratings for the Bosox began to drop off after the 2nd World Series win in 2007. The pent up anticipation that had accumulated over 80 years was no longer there to drive the numbers. Interest and passion somewhat waned. The WooSox will initially get a bump with the novelty of a new park as every team does. They however will not be able to tap into the BoSox passion that existed in the early 2000's as that is no longer there at the same levels. Finishing just a few games over .500 some 19 games out of the American League East Division in the last full season (2019) along with the short and bastardized Covid 2020 season (with low team expectations) will not help drive tickets sales for the new Polar Park.
People came from all over to go to McCoy. You'd be just as likely to see people from Bristol or Warwick as you would be to see people from Pawtucket or Cumberland.
I just don't understand why you seem to think ghetto people went to McCoy. Or why you seem to think wealthy people will be at Polar Park. Neither is accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried
Where did I say the attendees were ghetto? No where. Location? No, not ghetto or dangerous but it is a lower income working class neighborhood with little draw or appeal. What I'm saying is tons of research has confirmed what baseball's core audience is - educated middle to upper middle class whites. 25-45 primary, 50-61 secondary.
Thanks to RI's dismal job market, families in eastern Worcester county and western Middlesex county have been seeing better wage growth and retention than Providence/Kent county despite Providence being the larger and more compelling metro area.
If I were a Red Sox exec I'm not sure I'd bet the future of my team on Worcester, but I'm certain they reviewed the demographics of the area and thought it was a good fit. And yes, you do need 'wealthy' people to make these things viable ... lower income families, no matter how cheap the tickets are, have neither the time, capital, or interest to attend a baseball game ... the stats state as much.
You're still not understanding who went to McCoy. You continue to incorrectly assume that working class low income people went to McCoy due to its location. That is not accurate.
Worcester is going to draw the same type of people that Pawtucket did. Who? Generally speaking, the type of families that you see in attendance at every suburban Little League ballpark throughout New England. They are Red Sox fans; they are glued to NESN almost every night; they are typically not wealthy and they are typically not poor. That will be the core audience. And, IMO, they will go less often due to the prices. We also can't overlook the fact that most of its core audience is faced with making a sacrifice (missing the Boston game on TV) if they choose to go to a minor league game. Double the prices and their decision becomes much easier.
And, yes, due to its setup, it should attract the 20-30 something casual fans like yourself. But, unless it's an absolutely fantastic atmosphere or they get completely caught up in the games and get hooked, it will be a challenge to get them to fill in the gaps on a regular basis.
Having said all of that, I am very much starting to get the impression that you really aren't looking to discuss minor league baseball. Your focus seems to be mostly about the Worcester area versus the Providence area...whereas you seem to think the Worcester area is far superior. Frankly, I couldn't disagree more but that's for a different discussion.
Getting back to baseball, I think you need to recognize that many minor league teams aren't close to where their major league team is located. That makes a world of difference. The "tons of research" you keep referencing likely doesn't take that into account. It also likely doesn't take into account that the Red Sox are different. I can't really explain what I mean by that, but it's true.
You're still not understanding who went to McCoy. You continue to incorrectly assume that working class low income people went to McCoy due to its location. That is not accurate.
Worcester is going to draw the same type of people that Pawtucket did. Who? Generally speaking, the type of families that you see in attendance at every suburban Little League ballpark throughout New England. They are Red Sox fans; they are glued to NESN almost every night; they are typically not wealthy and they are typically not poor. That will be the core audience. And, IMO, they will go less often due to the prices. We also can't overlook the fact that most of its core audience is faced with making a sacrifice (missing the Boston game on TV) if they choose to go to a minor league game. Double the prices and their decision becomes much easier.
And, yes, due to its setup, it should attract the 20-30 something casual fans like yourself. But, unless it's an absolutely fantastic atmosphere or they get completely caught up in the games and get hooked, it will be a challenge to get them to fill in the gaps on a regular basis.
Having said all of that, I am very much starting to get the impression that you really aren't looking to discuss minor league baseball. Your focus seems to be mostly about the Worcester area versus the Providence area...whereas you seem to think the Worcester area is far superior. Frankly, I couldn't disagree more but that's for a different discussion.
Getting back to baseball, I think you need to recognize that many minor league teams aren't close to where their major league team is located. That makes a world of difference. The "tons of research" you keep referencing likely doesn't take that into account. It also likely doesn't take into account that the Red Sox are different. I can't really explain what I mean by that, but it's true.
I honestly do not understand how you manage to draw these conclusions based off what I wrote.
1) I never claimed the fans at McCoy were low income, rather, the lower income location likely put a cap on attendance as it appealed solely to families and retirees looking to watch a baseball game. There is little other draw to the area. For those fans attending a game primarily as a social event (baseball being secondary), the location did little to appeal to them.
2) Providence is a superior city to Worcester, but the state has failed to maintain a strong jobs market. As a result, despite the higher GDP, the wealthier Providence 'burbs tend to have lower incomes than the immediate Worcester 'burbs. No, I do not think Worcester is a better city ... not now and likely not ever ... but the surrounding towns have benefited greatly from Boston/MA's robust economy. The resulting demographics, IMO, align quite well with a minor league baseball team. Whether they show or not is to be seen.
I do think a well placed Providence stadium would do as well or better than the new Worcester stadium, but I've been focused largely on the McCoy to Worcester transition.
2) Providence is a superior city to Worcester, but the state has failed to maintain a strong jobs market. As a result, despite the higher GDP, the wealthier Providence 'burbs tend to have lower incomes than the immediate Worcester 'burbs. No, I do not think Worcester is a better city ... not now and likely not ever ... but the surrounding towns have benefited greatly from Boston/MA's robust economy. The resulting demographics, IMO, align quite well with a minor league baseball team. Whether they show or not is to be seen.
The problem however with your demographics logic is that the Worcester market is roughly half the size of the Pawtucket/Providence market. Given that the most frequent patrons of minor league baseball come from within about 30 minutes drive, that is a key factor that will not help attendance in Worcester.
The problem however with your demographics logic is that the Worcester market is roughly half the size of Pawtucket/Providence. Given most repeat patrons of minor league baseball come from within about 30 minutes drive, that is a key factor.
I was going to say similar. While the median income in some of Worcester's eastern suburbs might exceed those of the Providence market, the Providence area is also far more populated. I'd guess that by total numbers, the Providence market has more of the target affluent demographic.
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