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I got out after 6 years. 4 years of college later I went back in. I was 28 and married when I went back in. We bought an apartment building at each of our next four duty stations. Aside from managing tenants when I deployed my Dw picked up various jobs along the way. She bought a laundromat in one country, a catering service in another. We have been licensed Foster-Parents at 3 locations. She stayed busy.
'Rich' or 'poor' has a lot to do with how you perceive yourself.
Most enlisted in that range who collect BAH make more than most entry level college grads that are the same age.
You and your "college grad"...I think a military member, that has the responsibility and makes the sacrifices that are required of military members today, should earn more than a "entry level college grad". You're giving WAY too much credit to someone who spent the last four years partying their butt off at college and has absolutely NO experience at anything other than studying. Military members have a ton more responsibilities and experience than these "entry level college grads" you keep spouting off about.
You and your "college grad"...I think a military member, that has the responsibility and makes the sacrifices that are required of military members today, should earn more than a "entry level college grad". You're giving WAY too much credit to someone who spent the last four years partying their butt off at college and has absolutely NO experience at anything other than studying.
Give me a break.
Four years partying their butt off? The majority of students who graduate with good grades do not spend their time partying. Go ask the people who graduate with grades to go to top law school, business school, or STEM majors how much time they spent partying. Ask real students at real universities.
I was merely pointing out that a person with a few years experience in the military is making more than many academic achievers who went to college.
Compare the enlisted person to a civilian with a similar credentials and he's doing very, very, very well for himself.
Your average e-4 admin clerk on shore duty does not have anywhere near the amount of responsibility of an entry level college grad in a major company.
Four years partying their butt off? The majority of students who graduate with good grades do not spend their time partying. Go ask the people who graduate with grades to go to top law school, business school, or STEM majors how much time they spent partying. Ask real students at real universities.
I was merely pointing out that a person with a few years experience in the military is making more than many academic achievers who went to college.
Compare the enlisted person to a civilian with a similar credentials and he's doing very, very, very well for himself.
Your average e-4 admin clerk on shore duty does not have anywhere near the amount of responsibility of an entry level college grad in a major company.
I beg to differ...there are many more kids partying their butts off, taking years longer to finish college than it should, and barely squeaking by than there are those "who graduate with grades to go to top law school, business school, or STEM majors". Maybe you're not in touch with the workforce today...there are very few skilled workers coming out of college (who could easily find jobs) and a whole lot that can't find jobs because they have no marketable skill-set.
Sometimes I can't believe you were actually in the military...most military members (shore duty or not) have much more responsibility than the majority of "entry level college grads". There are exceptions on both sides but the majority of "entry level college grads" are heavily supervised and treated like new recruits were treated when they first came in the military. The E-4 is probably supervising some people and is responsible for MANY programs that the civilian sector doesn't have to worry about, most entry level college grads supervise no one and have very little responsibility.
Now, had you been realistic and used a more realistic example of the E4 that is conducting quality assurance sign off's on aircraft before the pilot flys off the end of the ship with live ordnance, you couldn't say the "entry level college grad" has more responsibility could you?
Four years partying their butt off? The majority of students who graduate with good grades do not spend their time partying. Go ask the people who graduate with grades to go to top law school, business school, or STEM majors how much time they spent partying. Ask real students at real universities.
The "average" college grad is not a STEM major.
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I was merely pointing out that a person with a few years experience in the military is making more than many academic achievers who went to college.
The average 25-year-old with a few years experience in the military has a technical skill and those few years of experience. The average civilian with a technical skill and a few years of experience is making more than many academic achievers who went to college--most of whom are not STEM majors.
That speaks of the benefit of having technical training and experience...not being in the military.
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Compare the enlisted person to a civilian with a similar credentials and he's doing very, very, very well for himself.
Not necessarily. As I've mentioned, a civilian with the same degree of technical training and experience will also be doing quite well.
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Your average e-4 admin clerk on shore duty does not have anywhere near the amount of responsibility of an entry level college grad in a major company.
You bounce back and forth with your "averages" and comparisons.
The "average" enlisted person is not an admin clerk. The "average" enlisted person is in an occupation that could kill himself or someone else in a simple moment of inattention (most shipboard jobs, most flightline jobs, most combat specialties).
When I left the military and began working a a Fortune 50 company for a few years, I was rather relieved that I could go to work (an entry level job in a major company) and no matter how much I screwed up, nobody would die.
I beg to differ...there are many more kids partying their butts off, taking years longer to finish college than it should, and barely squeaking by than there are those "who graduate with grades to go to top law school, business school, or STEM majors". Maybe you're not in touch with the workforce today...there are very few skilled workers coming out of college (who could easily find jobs) and a whole lot that can't find jobs because they have no marketable skill-set.
And there are many people in the military who show up and take up the air others breath. It goes both ways. Stop acting like every person in the military is a shining example of responsibility and sacrifice.
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Sometimes I can't believe you were actually in the military...most military members (shore duty or not) have much more responsibility than the majority of "entry level college grads". There are exceptions on both sides but the majority of "entry level college grads" are heavily supervised and treated like new recruits were treated when they first came in the military. The E-4 is probably supervising some people and is responsible for MANY programs that the civilian sector doesn't have to worry about, most entry level college grads supervise no one and have very little responsibility.
I beg to differ.
Entry level college grads are not treated like new recruits in the jobs paying 45k (my original point). They're treated more like Junior Officers and they do have a huge amount of responsibility given their experience.
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
The average 25-year-old with a few years experience in the military has a technical skill and those few years of experience. The average civilian with a technical skill and a few years of experience is making more than many academic achievers who went to college--most of whom are not STEM majors.
And where did those civilians get the technical skills if they didn't go to school?
My point was that a person with only a high school diploma is doing quite well in the military when compared to the real world.
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That speaks of the benefit of having technical training and experience...not being in the military.
Not necessarily. As I've mentioned, a civilian with the same degree of technical training and experience will also be doing quite well.
You keep missing my point. The military person with only a high school diploma is doing quite well. When you consider all they had to do was sign on the dotted line and be willing to learn.
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You bounce back and forth with your "averages" and comparisons.
The "average" enlisted person is not an admin clerk. The "average" enlisted person is in an occupation that could kill himself or someone else in a simple moment of inattention (most shipboard jobs, most flightline jobs, most combat specialties).
The "average" is not anywhere near combat, the flight line, or imminent danger. I know everyone likes to believe that, but statistically speaking it's not true.
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When I left the military and began working a a Fortune 50 company for a few years, I was rather relieved that I could go to work (an entry level job in a major company) and no matter how much I screwed up, nobody would die.
I worked plenty of jobs that didn't put anyone in imminent danger in the Navy. Not every moment of every day is dealing with life or death situations. We're there situations that were really dangerous? Yes. But, it wasn't every day.
I haven't read the complete thread, so if I am repeating what someone else has already said, my apologies. Across the board I do not feel military is overly or under paid. But when you isolate certain skill sets you can make the argument either way.
But even the specialties where you can argue the troops are over paid is a tough comparison because there are certain responsibilities inherent to the military that those in the civilian world simply do not have. So it depends on how much detail you wish to consider.
I would argue that wherever the military, regardless of branch, is paying out a hefty SRB those in that MOS are underpaid relative to civilian counterparts. This is basic economics, really. If a skill set has applications elsewhere and for a higher price the military has to do something to incentivize retention.
I personally do not feel overpaid or underpaid. I think I make fair pay for the job I do. Between monetary entitlements such as pay, BAH, BAS and tax advantage (which is an estimate of what you would be paying if BAH and BAS was taxable income) as well as the medical benefits I really can't complain. To top it all off, I have also benefitted by pursuing a Master's program, so I got an $80,000 or so degree paid for by the military. In return I am doing a specialized "pay-back" tour.
I believe if someone doesn't get everything he/she wants outs out of the military it is his/her own fault. There are so many programs that really enhance the pay and benefits when you take them into consideration. Sometimes these programs are hurting for volunteers to participate (believe it or not, my Master's program was one of them).
This has been a good life for me and my family. It is not without its challenges, and not every day brings me home happy. But overall I feel like the military has been a fair place with fair pay, and lots of extras.
And there are many people in the military who show up and take up the air others breath. It goes both ways. Stop acting like every person in the military is a shining example of responsibility and sacrifice.
I beg to differ.
Entry level college grads are not treated like new recruits in the jobs paying 45k (my original point). They're treated more like Junior Officers and they do have a huge amount of responsibility given their experience.
I'm having a hard time believing I'm actually arguing with a former military officer with a college education and not someone trolling here.
I'm not talking about peoples behavior that "show up and take up the air others breath", as there are plenty of military members and civilians that don't perform to their potential. I'm talking about the responsibility level of the average E4 in the military and the average "entry level college graduate". I would be willing to bet that the average military member (of course there are exceptions on both sides) has more responsibility and more is expected of them than the the average "entry level college graduate".
I always found it funny when we would bring Junior Officers into the Navy, that had jobs in the civilian sector prior to coming in, and were overwhelmed with the level of responsibility and authority military members had. I remember several times hearing, "I can't believe Petty Officer Smith can authorize spending that amount of money as that amount would have required the CFO's approval in the company I worked for, are you sure we can trust him Senior Chief?"
I remember as an E3 (been in the Navy less than two years) standing on the flight deck with a pilot that just made an emergency landing in an aircraft with an electrical problem. He explained the problem and I crawled in and troubleshot the issue, flipped a couple switches, and crawled out and told him it was ready to fly. Another Officer that was brand new to the Navy said "we need to get that checked out by someone more senior before you go up again". The pilot, who was a Commander (O5) and had been in the Navy for 15 years, looked at me and said "Smith (not my real last name) is it safe to fly?", I said "Yes Sir, it is." and his response was "That's good enough for me" and got in and catapulted off the end of the ship with live ordnance to drop on a certain middle eastern country. That Junior Officer had a whole different attitude about his Sailors after that day as that was the day he learned about the responsibility level military members have.
Most "Entry level college grads" that just completed their BS in Business Administration and get their first job as a Bank Teller (because they don't have experience to get anything else) won't have anywhere near the responsibility as the average E4 military member. Don't give me some BS about lawyers, nurses, doctors, top MBA candidates, etc. because those are not most "entry level college grads". Heck, most "entry level college grads" can't get hired let alone be given responsibility.
I also like how you keep saying these military members "have no education past high school", THEY ALL HAVE EDUCATION PAST HIGH SCHOOL! They all went to SCHOOL to learn how to perform their actual job and have done it as military members. They don't just have theoretical knowledge of what the job will be like someday, like your "entry level college graduates" do. Military members have education and experience.
Last edited by LBTRS; 12-06-2013 at 02:53 PM..
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