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I have to agree and our military is well paid and has an excellent retirement program.
Are you a military retiree and know first hand that the retirement plan is excellent? I don't get a very large pension for my 26 years of service, certainly not one I can "retire" on.
Almost all of the enlisted folks I know that have retired have had to take entry level positions and have a hard time getting those because of their age. Even with their military retirement and the civilian job they are WAY behind most civilians salaries with similar training and experience that have been in the workforce for 20+ years.
I spent a career in the military and after retirement found myself competing for entry level jobs with 20 and 30 year olds who are much more attractive to employers. Civilian employers don't translate senior military experience into civilian mid manager and director level positions like we were assigned in the military.
Finally after many months of job hunting I decided to hide the fact that my experience was from the military and wrote a resume, that while it said I worked for the US Navy, didn't actually indicate I was in the military. I had the same experience on my resume that I could not even get interviews with prior, however, now I could get interviews because I removed all mention of the military from my resume.
Once I concealed the fact that I was in the military I received numerous calls for interviews and was offered the first two positions I interviewed for. They actually asked me in the interview "I can't tell with your resume, were you actually in the military or did you work for them as a civilian?". I didn't lie about anything and after the interview I filled out the application with all my military titles and provided my DD214.
I was able to get them to overlook my military background with a strong interview, however, to get the interview I had to confuse them so they didn't actually know I was in the military.
My buddies from high school that went to college and started climbing the corporate ladder are all WAY ahead of me even when you figure in my military pension. My buddies are VP's, Director's, Executive Directors, Regional Directors, etc.
If I had it to do over again I'd not waste so many good years of my life holding out for that "excellent retirement plan". And if you have ever used Tricare medical insurance you'll know it is far from "excellent".
I'm now a HR Director and hire hundreds of people a year. It saddens me to see all the military retirees resumes come across my desk competing for entry level jobs that none of my hiring managers want to hire because they want some young hotshot that has jumped from job to job over the last two or three years.
I always thought the military retirement plan was "excellent" until I retired and seen how far behind I was in salary compared to my peers.
I had always considered military retirement pay compensation for agreeing to enter the job market late. Although you're complaining about it, surely you've run into civilians who think it's unfair that someone in his 40s should be getting a government check and insist that you shouldn't get anything at all until you "really" retire.
Are you a military retiree and know first hand that the retirement plan is excellent? I don't get a very large pension for my 26 years of service, certainly not one I can "retire" on.
I only served 20 years.
I am a military 'retiree'.
My pension is more than enough for me to retire and to support my family.
Quote:
... Almost all of the enlisted folks I know that have retired have had to take entry level positions and have a hard time getting those because of their age. Even with their military retirement and the civilian job they are WAY behind most civilians salaries with similar training and experience that have been in the workforce for 20+ years.
That must suck.
What about their investment portfolios?
Quote:
... My buddies from high school that went to college and started climbing the corporate ladder are all WAY ahead of me even when you figure in my military pension. My buddies are VP's, Director's, Executive Directors, Regional Directors, etc.
My highschool buddies are 20 years removed from retirement.
Quote:
... used Tricare medical insurance you'll know it is far from "excellent".
Hmm, I have prostate cancer. Because I have Tricare, I was seen by doctors quickly and treated quickly.
My healthcare is far above and beyond what civilians get.
Quote:
... I always thought the military retirement plan was "excellent" until I retired and seen how far behind I was in salary compared to my peers.
Are you a military retiree and know first hand that the retirement plan is excellent? I don't get a very large pension for my 26 years of service, certainly not one I can "retire" on.
Almost all of the enlisted folks I know that have retired have had to take entry level positions and have a hard time getting those because of their age. Even with their military retirement and the civilian job they are WAY behind most civilians salaries with similar training and experience that have been in the workforce for 20+ years.
I spent a career in the military and after retirement found myself competing for entry level jobs with 20 and 30 year olds who are much more attractive to employers. Civilian employers don't translate senior military experience into civilian mid manager and director level positions like we were assigned in the military.
Finally after many months of job hunting I decided to hide the fact that my experience was from the military and wrote a resume, that while it said I worked for the US Navy, didn't actually indicate I was in the military. I had the same experience on my resume that I could not even get interviews with prior, however, now I could get interviews because I removed all mention of the military from my resume.
Once I concealed the fact that I was in the military I received numerous calls for interviews and was offered the first two positions I interviewed for. They actually asked me in the interview "I can't tell with your resume, were you actually in the military or did you work for them as a civilian?". I didn't lie about anything and after the interview I filled out the application with all my military titles and provided my DD214.
I was able to get them to overlook my military background with a strong interview, however, to get the interview I had to confuse them so they didn't actually know I was in the military.
My buddies from high school that went to college and started climbing the corporate ladder are all WAY ahead of me even when you figure in my military pension. My buddies are VP's, Director's, Executive Directors, Regional Directors, etc.
If I had it to do over again I'd not waste so many good years of my life holding out for that "excellent retirement plan". And if you have ever used Tricare medical insurance you'll know it is far from "excellent".
I'm now a HR Director and hire hundreds of people a year. It saddens me to see all the military retirees resumes come across my desk competing for entry level jobs that none of my hiring managers want to hire because they want some young hotshot that has jumped from job to job over the last two or three years.
I always thought the military retirement plan was "excellent" until I retired and seen how far behind I was in salary compared to my peers.
This is 100% spot on.
I see a ton of retirees coming to the government in entry level jobs (GS-5 and GS-7 positions). And it's still extremely difficult for them to get the position. The civilian hiring managers in the DOD have some preconceived notions about retirees.
Let's take Officer A who did 5 years and left. He starts his career at 27 in a corporate or government job. His peer stays for 15-20 more years on active duty to get the retirement. 15-20 years is a huge amount of time in the civilian world. In my current career they expect you to be at least a senior manager after 10-15 years (high GS-14 or low GS-15). At 15-20 you should be the equivalent of a CO or higher in the civ world. You're giving up quite a bit of opportunity when you stay on active duty. I came to the conclusion that you should only stay on active if you really love the job. Staying for a pension and thinking you won't be behind everyone else in your 40's when you get out is being naive. Very few people are able to get great jobs after leaving and that has more to do with the person.
A lot of people don't realize that the pension is there to help you retain your quality of life because of the expected pay cut.
Last edited by Pyramidsurf; 10-22-2014 at 05:40 AM..
I really love it is when some civilian starts preaching (like in a career progression talk or performance eval) to a retiree or veteran about "leadership" or some other BS, as if the veteran/retiree has never in their life had to take a leadership role.
When I worked briefly for the EEOC, I had this idiotic talk, some guy who was never in the military, and who has had leadership positions which I would say were really lacking in their depth, starts to lecture me about obtaining some leadership skills in order to progress, totally dismissing any previous skills I obtained from the military. This is not just my story, numerous veterans run into this BS in the gov and private sector.
Really, it seems to me (and many others I have spoken to) that veterans and retirees are treated more like kids fresh out of college than experienced professionals in many career fields, what is especially disappointed is the federal sector is full of people with this attitude.
This is why people are truly giving up a lot if they hit the retirement in the military. As I posted on the other thread, I did 12 years and while the second part was the greatest, it really did set me back in my career. My experience, skills, etc, did not matter at all, except for the extra points to get on with the EEOC (which I quit after a year for a better private sector opportunity). I was still treated all the same as the people fresh out of college.
I really love it is when some civilian starts preaching (like in a career progression talk or performance eval) to a retiree or veteran about "leadership" or some other BS, as if the veteran/retiree has never in their life had to take a leadership role.
When I worked briefly for the EEOC, I had this idiotic talk, some guy who was never in the military, and who has had leadership positions which I would say were really lacking in their depth, starts to lecture me about obtaining some leadership skills in order to progress, totally dismissing any previous skills I obtained from the military. This is not just my story, numerous veterans run into this BS in the gov and private sector.
Really, it seems to me (and many others I have spoken to) that veterans and retirees are treated more like kids fresh out of college than experienced professionals in many career fields, what is especially disappointed is the federal sector is full of people with this attitude.
This is why people are truly giving up a lot if they hit the retirement in the military. As I posted on the other thread, I did 12 years and while the second part was the greatest, it really did set me back in my career. My experience, skills, etc, did not matter at all, except for the extra points to get on with the EEOC (which I quit after a year for a better private sector opportunity). I was still treated all the same as the people fresh out of college.
Leadership in the military is much different from leadership in the civilian world. I know some will disagree, but I think it's true.
The military is basically a structured dictatorship where you follow the orders of those over you. You really don't have a choice. Sure, you can drive the guys who work for you into the ground, but short of a mutiny, they'll get the mission accomplished. The military works on obidience to orders and respect for rank and is completely different from the civilian world.
The civilian world is much different in my experience. Good civilian leaders need to be proactive and great communicators. People don't have to listen to you nor do they have to do what you say. Workers can say how they really feel to your face. They can quit and leave you high and dry if they want to. They can say what they want to who they want.
I think the biggest difference is civilian bosses need to learn how to motivate their workers. Military leadership doesn't really face that problem. People will do the job out of fear of punishment a lot of the time.
It is different, much so, but to dismiss any experience because of this difference, especially when giving credit to the leadership activities conducted by college kids for college groups, is really a bit outlandish in my opinion.
To hear "Oh look everyone, Ms. Jones was the leader of her college literature study group, what great leadership skills and attributes she picked up" (this is similar to a real conversation), all the while dismissing basically any leadership skills obtained while in the military, even from the officer corps, is ridiculous. They dismiss it because they cannot relate, because they have no idea about it, however, they do have an idea about college activities.
While the military is much more structured, the basics of motivation, accomplishment, integrity, high performance, etc, all still apply to leading people. You can have just a horrible leader and the command and/or unit will reflect this by way of performance and morale. Only having subordinates doing stuff out of fear of punishment is not leadership.
Likewise in the civilian world, only having people do things because they want to keep their job is not good leadership either. Leadership I find with my particular private sector job is much easier than in the military because I am dealing with pretty much college educated, experienced professionals who are expected to work independently, and have a lot of experience even before reaching to this level, contrast with the military, which has a rather very diverse group in the military, each needing there own way of addressing to properly obtain their best from them, and have a range of issues ranging from typical 19 year old immaturity, to seasoned veterans going through a family crisis.
It is different, much so, but to dismiss any experience because of this difference, especially when giving credit to the leadership activities conducted by college kids for college groups, is really a bit outlandish in my opinion.
To hear "Oh look everyone, Ms. Jones was the leader of her college literature study group, what great leadership skills and attributes she picked up" (this is similar to a real conversation), all the while dismissing basically any leadership skills obtained while in the military, even from the officer corps, is ridiculous. They dismiss it because they cannot relate, because they have no idea about it, however, they do have an idea about college activities.
While the military is much more structured, the basics of motivation, accomplishment, integrity, high performance, etc, all still apply to leading people. You can have just a horrible leader and the command and/or unit will reflect this by way of performance and morale. Only having subordinates doing stuff out of fear of punishment is not leadership.
Likewise in the civilian world, only having people do things because they want to keep their job is not good leadership either. Leadership I find with my particular private sector job is much easier than in the military because I am dealing with pretty much college educated, experienced professionals who are expected to work independently, and have a lot of experience even before reaching to this level, contrast with the military, which has a rather very diverse group in the military, each needing there own way of addressing to properly obtain their best from them, and have a range of issues ranging from typical 19 year old immaturity, to seasoned veterans going through a family crisis.
I agree. The problem is most civilians have no idea about the military, even DOD civilians. And unfortunately, the ones who become problem children in their second career or after the service tend to be the only experience people have with the military (or so they think). No one assoiciates the professional at his desk who does his job and motivates others with the military (even though he is a veteran).
Much has been said about not all career fields are dangerous and so forth. Not much has been said (admittedly I only read half of the 30 pages) about spouses. Specifically, when speaking of members in the 10-20 year stretch of their enlistment its reasonable to expect them to be married. Fair enough? While not every specialty can be expected to be in a combat arms rating all military members will experience a PCS several times. This presents a problem for spousal career choices. How do you account for lost earnings and inability to launch, maintain and elevate a career for the spouse. Its much like trying to prove a negative but its an area that isn't often addressed.
There is great deal of cherry picking in this thread.
Base Housing is substandard in some areas and fantastic in others.
Using the San Diego area to quote BAH sounds good to someone not familiar with how it works. The uninformed would think "Wow! they make $80k a year!" Not understanding that much of it is due to the inordinately high cost of housing. They wont make that if stationed somewhere as pedestrian as Fort Gordon, Ga.
My discriminative first hand experience is that as a 23 year old sailor with 5 years of experience at the (newly promoted) rank of E5, I was in charge of 1 of 4 engine rooms on an aircraft carrier for 12 hours a day(yes, we were Port and Starboard for an entire deployment), 7 days a week for 8 months. This means that the ships captain had enough confidence to place the responsibility of an entire aircraft carriers engine room operations in the hands of a 23 year old HS graduate from the hills of East Tennessee.
Later after switching over to the Air Force. As a mid grade enlisted and rather salty E6/TSgt I was the NCOIC of a Area Defense Operations Center at a major joint base in Iraq for 12 hours a day for several months.
That is, unless I was out on presence patrols where I was the NCOIC or 2IC. No officers went on patrols with us.
Now, I'm no junior officer with a fancy degree that knows all but seems to me that's a heap more responsibility for someone than might be found on the civilian side equivalent with the same age and years on the job.
My personal opinion is that it is impossible to quantify the expectations and experiences of a military lifestyle with a study comparison to the private sector pay. Now, if you want to argue for pay and entitlement reform I'd be on your side.
The 20 year all or nothing system needs to go away.
Sign up for a finance job and never deploy? Thanks for your service.
Sign up for a combat arms job? Thanks for your service, here's more money.
Trying to equate military jobs and compensation to the civilian counterpart is foolish. I understand why the government does its studies but this is the same government that spends millions to study condom origami.
Sounds like real life for many people outside the military. You seem to think that people not in the military don't have the problems of moving, dealing with a two career family and so on.
Sounds like real life for many people outside the military. You seem to think that people not in the military don't have the problems of moving, dealing with a two career family and so on.
News: They do.
I always laugh when I hear military members talk about the hours they have to work as if other jobs don't require sacrifice or overtime. And let's be serious, there's shore duty where you work half days all the time. You don't go your whole career working non stop.
Last month I worked two 70 hour weeks. Another month I worked three weeks straight with no days off (with 9-10 hour days). And no, I didn't get overtime. The work had to be finished. The fact is most high paying salaried positions require significantly more hours than 40 hours per week.
I know plenty of spouses who had to move or give up their careers for their husband's civilan job. Let's also not forget how good of a deal military members get for childcare. It costs three times as much for non military families with two working parents.
Last edited by Pyramidsurf; 10-22-2014 at 10:17 AM..
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