U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Military Life and Issues
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-31-2014, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Durham, North Carolina
775 posts, read 1,563,085 times
Reputation: 1467

Advertisements

I am grateful I served during the draft years.
A draft army is a "Citizen Army."
You never knew who could be the son of a judge, a preacher, or a politician.
People looked over each other's shoulders. Orders were questioned.

But having so much diversity in the U.S. Military taught me what "Professionalism" really means.

"IT'S NOT PERSONAL" ... yelled on sergeant.
Regardless of color, height, political affiliation, culture, or creed, you gave provided the best service and care possible. That was professionalism.

Is it my imagination... or has that changed?
I'm finding veterans who think they are gatekeepers based upon politics or other bigoted biases.
What's happening with mature, selfless professionalism?

What were you taught?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-31-2014, 05:26 PM
 
2,321 posts, read 2,362,322 times
Reputation: 2645
I'd disagree with just about everything you said .. I'd argue that you are talking about a voluntary military, not a draft military, and you find professionalism everywhere in the military today.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2014, 06:29 PM
 
9,347 posts, read 15,792,238 times
Reputation: 17142
I disagree with you as well. Also, I hope you are not naive enough to actually think that children of prominent citizens were drafted unless they wanted to be drafted. CCR recorded "Fortunate Son" for a reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2014, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Pérouges
577 posts, read 646,833 times
Reputation: 1327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molli View Post
I'd disagree with just about everything you said ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
I disagree with you as well.
.... I disagree also.

For an Armed Force to have a high degree of professionalism it needs to be manned by professionals.

My country had conscription for the first 6 years of my service and "Professionalism" is not the descriptive that I'd use when describing the aims of the average conscript. "Surviving" would be a better one, stay out of trouble and get it over with was the main aim and fair enough, it wasn't as though it was their career choice after all. It's the issue that for the most part they don't want to be there. There is a problem with regards to mind set which does, in my view, make a marked difference to the levels they attain(ed). I'll grant that a level of competency was often attained and some of those continued their service, then they'd be professionals but that wasn't the norm. Most just wanted to go home.

Would I describe a conscript/draftee armed force to be one of professionalism? On the whole?... nope.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2014, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,723 posts, read 47,495,927 times
Reputation: 17577
Today's military is volunteer. You sign a contract. Your contract provides salary and benefit package. In exchange for those benefits you serve within the context of the UCMJ. If you wish to no longer serve in that context any longer, then simply do not sign any additional contracts when your current one ends.

Professionalism means that you keep a stiff upper-lip. You do what your told, even when you see things that 'we' are doing that is immoral. Our security clearances require that we never divulge to the outside world what we do, or the information we must work with.

I held various security clearances, that caused me to handle intell that documented and discussed, programs within the US that I felt / feel are unethical. My duties at the time included that I had to read large documents and prepare briefings on them. Professionalism meant that I needed to remove my own personal disgust, and objectively present the information to those I was briefing. I presented briefings on topics that still to this day, if I think much about it, I get heart burn.

If you do not like the job, then do not sign the contract.

In my case, by the time I was doing intell duties, I was fairly senior, and I continued the job mostly for the pension.

I have sat through many training sessions on 'Pride and Professionalism'.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-02-2014, 11:48 AM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,333,321 times
Reputation: 32238
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
, I hope you are not naive enough to actually think that children of prominent citizens were drafted unless they wanted to be drafted. CCR recorded "Fortunate Son" for a reason.
This.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-03-2014, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
8,864 posts, read 4,829,530 times
Reputation: 7684
Quote:
Originally Posted by veganwriter View Post
.........
What were you taught?
Not to watch TV!

A while after I was out, where I had done MP work, I was in a civilian college forensics class. The prof was asking a hypothetical question of what do you do if your informant wants to be under your protection but still deal drugs? I immediately answered you don't let him....and was ignored. He presented the question another way, I gave a similar answer, and he went by me. After another pass or two, I was beginning to wonder if I was too nice for this job.

When he asked what one's guide was, how did they decide how to act, I answered by following one's oath, one's Constitution, and he accepted my answer for the class.

Afterwards in office hours, I told him my concerns, about being too nice for the job, and he told me, "Look, I know you have law enforcement experience, but your classmates don't. The only thing they know about this job is by what they see on TV." (ie, like shows like "The Shield" where the ends justify the means)

Secondly, before I was commissioned, a bunch of us midshipmen were in a submarine battle simulator. We were suppose to sink a Soviet destroyer escorting a hospital ship. Well, our multiple attacks were something of a comedy of terrors, we sank the hospital ship by accident, and the destroyer wasted us. In the briefing afterwards, us midshipmen were all under the general mindset that we should have hit the hospital ship intentionally to clear the path to take out the destroyer. What did it matter if there were wounded Soviets on it? Soviet was Soviet.

What it mattered was, my father told me, that there may have been POW's on it as well, that we may be intentionally killing our own troops. That was a little fact I didn't know at the time.

Okay, that was our ROTC school's mentality at work, where the beliefs imposed are one belief, perhaps even the same belief year after year. This indoctrination continues into the military, where the Captain's philosophy becomes that of everyone under him and may heaven save those who disagree.

Right or wrong, for it may be necessary for survival and victory, if one doesn't get other input, they are at a risk to be unprofessional further down the road.

And what is being unprofessional? When one does things that are against their oath, because everyone else says it should be done, because if they don't do it, they will lose all they have earned over the years. When it is better that they always appear right. When the ends justify the means.

If one is doing something where they aren't willing to stand up and say, "Yes, Sir, that was me," then they are probably being unprofessional.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Military Life and Issues
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top