"Achievement Gap" (renting, loans, transfer)

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

Originally Posted by southernsmoke

Well, a lot of it depends on your definitions, but the point is that there are a lot of Americans paying no federal income tax (and probably no state income tax as well for most of them, in states where there is an income tax).

I thought this number was in the 40s (and it most likely is now, after this drawn out recession), but in 2008, 38% of filers (to be precise in my definitions, this is not "people"... it can be a couple or an individual, depending on filing status) had zero or negative income tax liability. Generally, stay-at-home mothers will be filing jointly (unless they get terrible tax advice), so this number does not reflect a hypothetical situation where one spouse earns income, the other doesn't, and therefore 50% of the family has income tax liability. In that case, it would (most likely) be one filer, with tax liability.

Distribution of Tax Units with Zero or Negative Individual Income Tax Liability by Cash Income Level, 2009

Me and my wife last year, with her working full time the whole year, and me working full time for about 9 months out of the year, made about 28,000 dollars and got more money back from the IRS than we paid in due to that two year "work" credit or whatever. We got it all back, and then some. Heck, my father, when I was in college, and he made like 70,000 a year paid only a couple hundred dollars after the college tax credit. And my education was almost fully paid by student loans which I am paying back myself now, they did not contribute much of anything. I remember filling out my FAFSA using their tax forms when I was a kid, and asking them why they hated taxes so much, since theirs were so low despite the fact we lived a pretty comfortable life. They didn't really have any answers. Back when I was a younger kid, they typically got money back from the IRS because we were below the poverty line. So maybe it just seemed like a lot compared to that.

Here in PA, there pretty much is no such thing as a tax refund for state income taxes. There's a pretty low rate, 3.2% I think. But nobody, or at least very few people, get anything back. There are also city income taxes that vary from place to place, and it's the same deal.

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Maybe create some tie in to welfare dollars that your children need to be getting a C or better or your aid will be cut (even kids with learning disabilities can easily achieve this with their modifications).

Yes, forcing kids to be held accountable for their parents' welfare money is a great idea. Watch, I bet domestic child abuse cases skyrocket as a result.

This would also provide even more motivation for kids to cheat in school in order to make the grade as well...

[audadvnc]

The problem for so many families is that the parents (all too often, single mothers with part time jobs) are struggling just to get by, to get a roof over their heads, keep some clothes on their children and some food in their bottomless bellies. School achievement doesn't even show up on their list of priorities.

[southernsmoke]

Originally Posted by Slig

This would also provide even more motivation for kids to cheat in school in order to make the grade as well...

That makes no sense. So are you suggesting that there should be no incentives to do well in school (because incentives --> cheating)?

[QuantumIguana]

If you're working three jobs, I don't think it teaches a work ethic, it just teaches people that hard work doesn't pay off too well. A lot of people work hard, but make little money. But go to college, get a good paying job, and you'll have evenings and weekends free, and maybe even be able to take vacations.

You always hear about scholarship athletes who just waste their 4 years in school, but there are plenty of people who worked hard to be good enough to get an athletic scholarship, not just for sports, but because they see education as the "golden ticket".

[southernsmoke]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

If you're working three jobs, I don't think it teaches a work ethic, it just teaches people that hard work doesn't pay off too well. A lot of people work hard, but make little money. But go to college, get a good paying job, and you'll have evenings and weekends free, and maybe even be able to take vacations.

I think you may be overestimating the ease of going to college and getting a good-paying job, let alone one where you can have evenings and weekends free. High-paying, career-oriented jobs often require long hours.

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

You always hear about scholarship athletes who just waste their 4 years in school, but there are plenty of people who worked hard to be good enough to get an athletic scholarship, not just for sports, but because they see education as the "golden ticket".

What? (Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about.)

[uptown_urbanist]

More detailed debate on the incentives thing should perhaps be moved to the education forum, but for what it's worth, yes, some experts do believe that certain incentives have contributed to the rise of cheating in today's schools. When grades become the end goal, rather than focusing on the content and the core education, it's easier for some to use a "the ends justify the means" argument. Connecting welfare money -- which isn't that much to begin with -- with grades would certainly be asking for all sorts of problems.

[southernsmoke]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

More detailed debate on the incentives thing should perhaps be moved to the education forum, but for what it's worth, yes, some experts do believe that certain incentives have contributed to the rise of cheating in today's schools. When grades become the end goal, rather than focusing on the content and the core education, it's easier for some to use a "the ends justify the means" argument. Connecting welfare money -- which isn't that much to begin with -- with grades would certainly be asking for all sorts of problems.

Well, I understand that there could be a correlation between higher incentives and more cheating. That's not what makes no sense. What makes no sense is saying, "well incentives lead to cheating, so incentives are bad."

Instead of tying welfare money to school performance, let's just get rid of welfare money. Now that's an idea.

[audadvnc]

Originally Posted by southernsmoke

let's just get rid of welfare money. Now that's an idea.

Yeah, that's an idea all right...

Now, which welfare programs should we cut? How about bailouts for incompetent banks, and zero percent loans from the Fed to its banks? Or tax-free transfers of estate wealth? (actually, this one is expiring in 2011 due to Congressional gridlock). Or farm subsidies for people that sit on fallow land instead of farming (i.e. Michelle Bachman)? Or mortgage interest tax deductions? Heck, any tax deductions whatsoever? They are all entitlement give away programs, and I'm not benefiting from any of them.

Everybody's got solutions. We just have to figure out which ones are more or less harmful than the problems they solve.

[Cruz Azul Guy]

Originally Posted by southernsmoke

That makes no sense. So are you suggesting that there should be no incentives to do well in school (because incentives --> cheating)?

Now that you mention it, I do believe there is far too much emphasis on achieving a letter grade or score and not enough emphasis on learning and becoming more enlightened, developing problem solving skills, etc. Unfortunately in the end there needs to be a way to measure progress, but I definitely think that having even more at stake to get a certain score or letter grade would hurt more than help.