Why is Mississippi trying to shut down its only abortion clinic? (buying, legal)

[SandiK]

Evidently the problems the Jackson abortion center are experiencing are not particular to MS. The same owner is unable to re-open her clinic in Birmingham, AL. Why? Well, it seems to be because of complete and utter failure in correct the health code violations which closed it in the first place. You know - this is the clinic which sent 3 people to emergency rooms (to be served by whatever dr. is unlucky enough to be on duty) in one day. The same clinic where a woman died.

Would you really and honestly want to have this quality of medical care, regardless of your stance on whether abortion is right or wrong? But never fear - the Jackson clinic has cured anything wrong by painting their building hot pink and getting good press from those eager to push the abortion agenda. Not to worry about safety of patients - the main goal is political debate.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by SandiK

Evidently the problems the Jackson abortion center are experiencing are not particular to MS. The same owner is unable to re-open her clinic in Birmingham, AL. Why? Well, it seems to be because of complete and utter failure in correct the health code violations which closed it in the first place. You know - this is the clinic which sent 3 people to emergency rooms (to be served by whatever dr. is unlucky enough to be on duty) in one day. The same clinic where a woman died.

Would you really and honestly want to have this quality of medical care, regardless of your stance on whether abortion is right or wrong? But never fear - the Jackson clinic has cured anything wrong by painting their building hot pink and getting good press from those eager to push the abortion agenda. Not to worry about safety of patients - the main goal is political debate.

Heh, heh.....speaking of masking "main goals".......what is your "main goal", Sandy?

"Safety"? Health? The color of buildings?

Or pro-life?

[Alluvial]

Originally Posted by p-squared

Yes, of course! Safe & legal abortion is a cornerstone of reducing abortion rates!

This might be the most ridiculous posting anywhere on the internet, ever.

I know it seems counter-intuitive, but all you have to do is look at the statistics from countries where abortion is legal; and those of countries where abortion is illegal. These can be found on the World Health Organization's website.

Using your logic towards "fundie extremist pharmacists", because some people feel that physician-assisted suicide is a perfectly logical solution means that ALL physicians must participate.

False equivalency. The pharmacist's job is to dispense medication which a physician or physician's assistant have prescribed. It is not his/her job to apply their religious beliefs to that dispensation. Imagine a nurse who is a Jehova's Witness. They don't believe in blood transfusions. Should you be denied a transfusion because of that nurse's beliefs? Assisted suicide is not comparable in the least.

Sounds like you read it on the internet, because they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.

Certainly I have read the WHO site and those of other health organizations. If you choose to believe that it's all woo-woo stuff, that's certainly your prerogative. I prefer to seek out information and educate myself.

[Alluvial]

Originally Posted by SandiK

Would you really and honestly want to have this quality of medical care, regardless of your stance on whether abortion is right or wrong?

Do you think the current atmosphere of bullying and vilification is conducive to attracting quality staff to the clinic? Who wants to work in a place where a guy carrying a cross is walking around in front of it yelling at people over a loudspeaker? So the forced-birth crowd bullies and harasses the clinic so that quality physicians don't want to work there; then they complain about the clinic not having any quality physicians. That's hardly fair.

[Alluvial]

By the way, here is an interesting blog post about it.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by Alluvial

Do you think the current atmosphere of bullying and vilification is conducive to attracting quality staff to the clinic? Who wants to work in a place where a guy carrying a cross is walking around in front of it yelling at people over a loudspeaker? So the forced-birth crowd bullies and harasses the clinic so that quality physicians don't want to work there; then they complain about the clinic not having any quality physicians. That's hardly fair.

Isn't it ironic? The pro-life group has actually made abortion more dangerous by bullying and threatening anyone who owns or even works at a clinic.

I don't know whether they will win completely. Roe vs Wade would have to be overturned for that, and I just don't see that happening.

[p-squared]

Alluvial, I'm going to have to ask you to post a link to the WHO data that compares abortion legality with abortion rates. I went to the WHO website and looked around, but had no luck finding a data table comparing abortion legality with abortion rates. And "counter-intuitive" doesn't begin to describe how nonsensical it sounds to say that if we have more abortion clinics, there will be less abortion. Using this logic, we just need to open more bars to curb problem drinking?

It is indeed the job of a pharmacist to fill prescriptions, but does that mean the pharmacist must set aside any personal beliefs s/he has? Just because a doctor is qualified and capable of performing a certain procedure, does that mean s/he MUST? You can demand that a brain surgeon perform abortions?

Like you, I like to seek out information and educate myself. Don't fall into the trap that many on your side do. Just because I oppose most abortions doesn't mean that I am unintelligent or uneducated. Faith comes in many flavors, and it is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

[Annie53]

Originally Posted by p-squared

Alluvial, I'm going to have to ask you to post a link to the WHO data that compares abortion legality with abortion rates. I went to the WHO website and looked around, but had no luck finding a data table comparing abortion legality with abortion rates. And "counter-intuitive" doesn't begin to describe how nonsensical it sounds to say that if we have more abortion clinics, there will be less abortion. Using this logic, we just need to open more bars to curb problem drinking?

It is indeed the job of a pharmacist to fill prescriptions, but does that mean the pharmacist must set aside any personal beliefs s/he has? Just because a doctor is qualified and capable of performing a certain procedure, does that mean s/he MUST? You can demand that a brain surgeon perform abortions?

Like you, I like to seek out information and educate myself. Don't fall into the trap that many on your side do. Just because I oppose most abortions doesn't mean that I am unintelligent or uneducated. Faith comes in many flavors, and it is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Yes, it does. If their beliefs interfere with them doing their job.....they do not belong in that job.

What if a pharmacist doesn't believe in premarital sex?

Should they be allowed to refuse to fill prescriptions for BC or Viagra for single people?

"Mr. Jones, are you married? No? Then I am sorry, I cannot in good conscience fill this prescription for Viagra, since I feel you have no business having sex outside of marriage. Good day to you."

Really? LOL

[Alluvial]

Originally Posted by p-squared

Alluvial, I'm going to have to ask you to post a link to the WHO data that compares abortion legality with abortion rates. I went to the WHO website and looked around, but had no luck finding a data table comparing abortion legality with abortion rates. And "counter-intuitive" doesn't begin to describe how nonsensical it sounds to say that if we have more abortion clinics, there will be less abortion. Using this logic, we just need to open more bars to curb problem drinking?

No problem, I'll go find them. Note that I'm talking about three things working together: sex ed, contraception, legal abortion. Not any one of them by themselves. You'd have to have all three in place.

It is indeed the job of a pharmacist to fill prescriptions, but does that mean the pharmacist must set aside any personal beliefs s/he has? Just because a doctor is qualified and capable of performing a certain procedure, does that mean s/he MUST?

Two different things. The pharmacist's job is to dispense medication as the doctor prescribes. If a person doesn't want to dispense anything that a doctor might prescribe, they should find a different vocation (or maybe work in a pharmacy within a hospital where they wouldn't be asked to dispense things they disagree with). Physicians have specialties; they have a practice built around that specialty; they will only be doing procedures which they are interested in doing.

You can demand that a brain surgeon perform abortions?

Don't be silly. Again, brain surgery is a specialty (as is OBGYN practice). I would no more ask a brain surgeon to perform an abortion than I would a structural engineer to design a flood-carrying channel.

Like you, I like to seek out information and educate myself. Don't fall into the trap that many on your side do. Just because I oppose most abortions doesn't mean that I am unintelligent or uneducated. Faith comes in many flavors, and it is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

Did not mean to denigrate you or anyone else; absolutely there are degrees of faith which is perfectly fine. There are also degrees of pushing faith onto other people who don't share yours. I know plenty of Christians who are respectful of others' beliefs and don't use them to encroach on others.

[Alluvial]

Ah, the study I read about on WHO is a 2003 joint study done with the Guttmacher institute.

On the whole, the abortion rate decreased more in developed countries, where abortion is generally safe and legal on broad grounds (from 39 to 26), than in developing countries, where the procedure is largely illegal and unsafe (from 34 to 29).

The lowest abortion rate in the world in 2003 was for Western Europe (12 per 1,000 women aged 15–44), where contraceptive services and use are widespread and safe abortion is easily accessible and legal under broad grounds. The rate was 17 for Northern Europe and 21 for the Northern America region (Canada and the United States). Africa, Asia and Latin America had the highest regional abortion rates, even though abortion is generally legally restricted and often unsafe in those regions.

I think if we had thorough sex education here in the U.S. we could lower our rate significantly.

"Nearly half of all induced abortions are unsafe, putting the lives and health of women at major risk. Each year, about 70,000 women die due to unsafe abortion and an additional five million suffer permanent or temporary disability," notes Dr. Paul F.A. Van Look, director of WHO’s Department of Reproductive Health and Research. “The widespread unmet need for contraception must be addressed if we are to see further decline in abortion rates, especially in Sub-Saharan Africa, where contraceptive use is low and unsafe abortion-related mortality is the high, compared with other regions"

(bolding mine) The three things I've been harping on must work together to lower rates, IMO.