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I think WVU is wise to investigate the incident given that they have twice made the national news recently and none of it good.
Of course, it's not just a WVU problem or just a Greek problem - it happens across college campuses everywhere.
That said, Greek Life (yes, I was one) does involve a good bit of partying.
WVU needs to quit trading on their #1 Party School image.
I suggest every parent read "Paying for the Party' before sending their kid off to any college.
So sad for this young man.
It's not a WVU or Greek problem - it's a stupidity problem. The kid made a stupid decision, and ended up dying because of it. Bad choices lead to bad consequences, plain and simple. Bad company corrupts good habits. His death was 100% preventable with a little common sense.
It's not a WVU or Greek problem - it's a stupidity problem. The kid made a stupid decision, and ended up dying because of it. Bad choices lead to bad consequences, plain and simple. Bad company corrupts good habits. His death was 100% preventable with a little common sense.
Agreed. It really has little to do with intelligence either. Sometimes really smart people don't have any common sense. Look at the Middle East, and you see examples of that at every single turn.
When I went to Concord years ago, I remember Greek pledges doin all kinds of crazy things. Of course I never ever pledged or got involved in it, wasn't my style, nor do I judge anybody who wanted to be a part of the Greek system. But one night me and a few friends were in my room drinking and heard screams from the floor above us, they were literally whipping pledges ass's with a paddle, you could hear the smacking and screams that the pledges took. There is no amount of friendship, connections, or frat life that would ever want me to pull my pants down, degrade myself, get whipped just to be part of something. Sometimes we want to be part of a popular group, but for myself that really pissed me off them doin them boys like that.
Last edited by CurseOfWilmore; 11-18-2014 at 11:18 PM..
When I went to Concord years ago, I remember Greek pledges doin all kinds of crazy things. Of course I never ever pledged or got involved in it, wasn't my style, nor do I judge anybody who wanted to be a part of the Greek system. But one night me and a few friends were in my room drinking and heard screams from the floor above us, they were literally whipping pledges ass's with a paddle, you could hear the smacking and screams that the pledges took. There is no amount of friendship, connections, or frat life that would ever want me to pull my pants down, degrade myself, get whipped just to be part of something. Sometimes we want to be part of a popular group, but for myself that really pissed me off them doin them boys like that.
They could have walked out any time they wished to do so. People make choices. It's up to them to determine whether or not the rewards are worth the sacrifice.
There are some good points made in the letter. That said, overall I disagree. My reasons are these...
If a young high school graduate goes to college and is too immature to decide with whom to associate as friends, that is largely the fault of the parent, not the school. There has been a major shift in attitudes over the past 4 decades or so as to responsibility for young people. During the 1950s and 1960s, teens were expected to assume responsibility at a young age. It was rare for high school kids to not be working at part time jobs, at least during summer months. Except for the rich, most college students held full time summer jobs. Half of my fraternity worked summers at Atlantic City. They practically took over the Mid City Hotel on South Kentucky Ave. there.
People arrived on campus with a sense of responsibility and maturity. The feel good crowd has largely ruined that. Teen jobs now go to illegal aliens in large metropolitan areas because those people will work "off the books" for less money, and because employers don't have to pay social security taxes on their earnings. The result is there are few jobs for teens, and they end up spending their time in often less than wholesome pastimes and not learning responsibilities. As a society, we have ourselves to blame for this development. We have sacrificed our youths' well being to feel good about taking care of people who have sneaked across our borders. Our youth are perfectly capable of assuming more responsibility. They simply are denied the opportunity to do so by stupid government policies and an apathetic public.
Still, at age 18 they can vote. They can join our military forces and serve as police officers in West Virginia. They can fully assume adult functions, and thus they should be required to live up to adult expectations. Gordon Gee is 100% correct when he says that college students are adults and should be treated as such. People tend to live up to the expectations placed on them. If they are expected to behave as adults, then generally they will do so. If you send the message that they can act as children because you believe that is all they are capable of doing, then they will happily ignore any sense of responsibility.
More stringent rules and controls are absolutely not the answer. Adults should be free to drink their beer and associate freely as long as they are not bothering others in the process. The answer lies in more accountabily for behavior choices, not in more restriction of choice. Act out and you get punished. End of story.
The University must judge behavior of the individual and hold that behavior to an adult standard. The potential for poor behavior is present in anybody, but folks need to understand that making the wrong behavior choices has negative consequences. There is no real logic in trying to script young peoples' behavior by limiting their choices. For that reason, having the school impose such rules as restricting Greek rush is not a good idea.
It's not a WVU or Greek problem - it's a stupidity problem. The kid made a stupid decision, and ended up dying because of it. Bad choices lead to bad consequences, plain and simple. Bad company corrupts good habits. His death was 100% preventable with a little common sense.
Why should the university continue to support clubs that offer 'bad company' and 'bad choices'?
The relationship between the Greeks and any university is tenuous at best. The universities tolerate because they know Greek life will attract students. Many of which - are there for the party.
Statistically, binge drinking does occur more in fraternities and sororities. Much research has been done in this area.
Coincidence, you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by abwvu1
Best idea I've seen yet. I hope the university strongly considers and actually implements that:
I actually think this is quite a good idea. A freshman, perhaps coming from a small school to a large university, is vulnerable and ready-made friends sounds great. In reality, it is a HUGE time commitment and my college experience was so much different than my non-Greek friends.
Waiting would bring a level of maturity to the process that might not be there in the first few months of school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
There are some good points made in the letter. That said, overall I disagree. My reasons are these...
If a young high school graduate goes to college and is too immature to decide with whom to associate as friends, that is largely the fault of the parent, not the school. There has been a major shift in attitudes over the past 4 decades or so as to responsibility for young people. During the 1950s and 1960s, teens were expected to assume responsibility at a young age. It was rare for high school kids to not be working at part time jobs, at least during summer months. Except for the rich, most college students held full time summer jobs. Half of my fraternity worked summers at Atlantic City. They practically took over the Mid City Hotel on South Kentucky Ave. there.
People arrived on campus with a sense of responsibility and maturity. The feel good crowd has largely ruined that. Teen jobs now go to illegal aliens in large metropolitan areas because those people will work "off the books" for less money, and because employers don't have to pay social security taxes on their earnings. The result is there are few jobs for teens, and they end up spending their time in often less than wholesome pastimes and not learning responsibilities. As a society, we have ourselves to blame for this development. We have sacrificed our youths' well being to feel good about taking care of people who have sneaked across our borders. Our youth are perfectly capable of assuming more responsibility. They simply are denied the opportunity to do so by stupid government policies and an apathetic public.
Still, at age 18 they can vote. They can join our military forces and serve as police officers in West Virginia. They can fully assume adult functions, and thus they should be required to live up to adult expectations. Gordon Gee is 100% correct when he says that college students are adults and should be treated as such. People tend to live up to the expectations placed on them. If they are expected to behave as adults, then generally they will do so. If you send the message that they can act as children because you believe that is all they are capable of doing, then they will happily ignore any sense of responsibility.
More stringent rules and controls are absolutely not the answer. Adults should be free to drink their beer and associate freely as long as they are not bothering others in the process. The answer lies in more accountabily for behavior choices, not in more restriction of choice. Act out and you get punished. End of story.
The University must judge behavior of the individual and hold that behavior to an adult standard. The potential for poor behavior is present in anybody, but folks need to understand that making the wrong behavior choices has negative consequences. There is no real logic in trying to script young peoples' behavior by limiting their choices. For that reason, having the school impose such rules as restricting Greek rush is not a good idea.
I really don't see where illegal aliens belongs in this thread at all. I don't know ONE teen that didn't work IF they wanted to have a job; not one and certainly not one in West Virginia.
That said - yes, an 18 year old can vote. Know what they can't do? They can't drink in a bar. But they CAN go to a fraternity party where the alcohol is free flowing.
What harm could come of . . . simply waiting? Not banning; not suspending all activities; simply stating - you can rush your sophomore year OR perhaps nearing the end of the first year and not the beginning.
I think it's quite a good idea.
Bottom line - the #1 Party School image attracts certain students to WVU. Those students who wish to simply continue their high school party will be attracted to that image.
Is this the reputation that WVU wishes to maintain?
Details haven't been released to this point. I believe it had something to do with drinking. Times have changed in our country. In earlier years, there was a better chance for people to learn responsible drinking as children. Thanks to the "control" crowd and left wingnuts, that is no longer the case. Now it is politically tabu and incorrect to serve children even small amounts of alcohol, and a person could actually be arrested for it. It's sort of an extension of the "if your mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in" philosophy. The result is young people enter adulthood in our country without ever having learned to respect alcohol. Then "control" efforts force their drinking behind closed doors and in back yards where binge drinking takes place. The results are quite predictable.
Europe has a 16 year old "drinking age" that is almost never enforced. They have very few problems with alcohol, because folks grow up with responsible use. We have been socially engineered to fail here in America.
"Europe" does not have a single legal drinking age, and younger legal ages for drinking are not associated with more responsible drinking.
"Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence that young Europeans drink more responsibly than their counterparts in the US.
A greater percentage of young people from all of the European countries except Iceland report drinking in the past 30 days.
A majority of the European countries included in this study have higher intoxication rates among young people than the United States and about one third of the countries have equal or lower rates to the United States; and
For a majority of these European countries, a greater percentage of young people report having been intoxicated before the age of 13."
"Studies have consistently shown that youth who start drinking and heavy drinking at a younger age are at significantly greater risk for a range of alcohol problems, including car crashes, drinking and driving, suicidal thoughts and attempts, unintentional injury, as well as drug and alcohol dependence later in life.
Why should the university continue to support clubs that offer 'bad company' and 'bad choices'?
The relationship between the Greeks and any university is tenuous at best. The universities tolerate because they know Greek life will attract students. Many of which - are there for the party.
Statistically, binge drinking does occur more in fraternities and sororities. Much research has been done in this area.
Coincidence, you think?
I actually think this is quite a good idea. A freshman, perhaps coming from a small school to a large university, is vulnerable and ready-made friends sounds great. In reality, it is a HUGE time commitment and my college experience was so much different than my non-Greek friends.
Waiting would bring a level of maturity to the process that might not be there in the first few months of school.
I really don't see where illegal aliens belongs in this thread at all. I don't know ONE teen that didn't work IF they wanted to have a job; not one and certainly not one in West Virginia.
That said - yes, an 18 year old can vote. Know what they can't do? They can't drink in a bar. But they CAN go to a fraternity party where the alcohol is free flowing.
What harm could come of . . . simply waiting? Not banning; not suspending all activities; simply stating - you can rush your sophomore year OR perhaps nearing the end of the first year and not the beginning.
I think it's quite a good idea.
Bottom line - the #1 Party School image attracts certain students to WVU. Those students who wish to simply continue their high school party will be attracted to that image.
Is this the reputation that WVU wishes to maintain?
Here's what your missing. That 18 year old is going to drink if he/she wants to drink no matter what you, me, or anybody else says about it. It is better for them to drink in a controlled environment where there is some regulation. Bars provide that. Fraternities used to provide that with their officers keeping things in line. They need to be held accountable to do that in the future. If things get out of hand at their parties, then they should be sanctioned. Age is NOT the issue. Behavior is the issue, and it should be the only focus.
I'm not sure about the source of your research. Research is only as good as the people conducting it,, and even then you have to eliminate their particular bias. My points are these... you are not going to stop young adults from drinking in any event. It couldn't be done in 1930, and it can't be done today. It is part of the culture, and it can not be socially engineered out of it. The best thing is to provide an environment where they learn to do so responsibly, such as takes place in Europe.
I also don't know the extent of your experience with young people working. I lived in the NYC area for many years, and in large population centers where there are large numbers of illegal aliens, it is basically impossible for our youth to get jobs to learn responsibility due to the presence of illegal aliens. It is much more profitable for businesses to hire them than young people. They pay zero taxes for those workers, and they work year around. It does impact our ability to offer responsibility building experiences to our youth.
Why should the university continue to support clubs that offer 'bad company' and 'bad choices'?
Because then they do at least have a little control over them. Do away with the official support and they are still going to exist. College Students are still going to move in together, throw parties and drink too much.
This isn't the fault of the University. It's the fault of the inevitable bad choice made by the ignorance of youth.
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