HELP! Anyone added a small propane heater for back-up purposes? (Keene: how much, houses)

[karen_in_nh_2012]

Hi, all! I normally would post a question like this in the House forum, but this seems more specific to New Hampshire, so here goes.

There is no natural gas where I live (near Keene). For heating my house, I use a pellet insert in my living room fireplace (primary) and oil (secondary). I always get nervous in the winter because if I lose power, I lose both heat sources. (Power outages are very rare in my particular neighborhood -- e.g., we didn't have any at all this past year, and the longest ANY has ever lasted in the whole time I've lived in this area has been a few hours), but one good ice storm and we could be down for days, so I'm always just a bit worried!)

There are also a couple of places in my house where the pellet insert's heat doesn't reach very well -- the TV room on the first floor and the 2nd-floor back bedrooms. (Both are part of an addition from the late '70s -- the addition is on the other side of the house from the living room, where the insert is.) So I thought, why not buy a relatively inexpensive propane heater and have it hooked up to my propane tank? Seemed pretty straightforward.

Of course I called my propane company, since they own the tank (that's totally the norm where I live -- probably 95% of houses with propane have company-owned tanks). The tech came last week and was actually very helpful and seemed knowledgeable too. They sell Empire and Rinnai heaters; I didn't want Rinnai because the ones they sell require electricity so they would be pointless for my situation. So, Empire it is.

After the tech left, I went online to price the Empire heaters. I could get the 15,000-btu for just over $600 plus another $200 or so for the blower. OK, that's $800 for what seems to be a good heater that would serve my needs well. (Note, I wasn't actually planning on buying it online -- I just wanted to get an IDEA of how much this would cost.) I figured another $1,000 for installation, so maybe just under $2,000 when all was said and done.

Well, I just got the estimate from my dealer. For the DV210 (the 10,000-btu version), their total quote is $3,120. Needless to say I was shocked, and asked them to break it down parts/labor. That came back parts $2,245 (including $1,075 for the heater itself) and labor $875. The labor charges sound fine to me, but I am stunned by the cost of parts.

FYI, this includes:
- the heater itself with blower (but again, it's the 10,000-btu version and I will likely get the 15,000)
- convert existing 5/8" line to high pressure [right now I have only my clothes dryer and water heater on propane -- I will be added a gas cooktop plus 1 or 2 of these propane heaters, so I think this line conversion is necessary]
- vent regulator to code
- install approximately 40' 3/4" schedule 40 black iron pipe
- install approximately 50' of 1/2" coated copper gas line
- install necessary fittings to complete system
- safety test and fire system

I have several questions ...

(1) Do the black iron pipes and 50' copper gas lines really cost this much? Seems like that's where much of the $1,170 is coming from ($2,245 parts minus $1,075 for the heater itself) ... but I checked Home Depot for the black iron pipe and it looks like $15 for a 5-foot section or about $120 for 40' and 50 feet of 1/2" coated copper gas line was $95 (and of course those are RETAIL prices). I know there are a few other things listed but holy crap, their mark-ups seem insane.

(2) I told the company I found the heater online for several hundred dollars cheaper. They said I could buy it but they wouldn't service it under warranty -- even if they installed it. (Seriously? ) I also asked them to break down the quote into what I could someone else do (e.g., a licensed plumber) and what they are required to do (as the tank owners). They wrote, "we generally do not perform only portions of an installation due to the liablities involved. That would depend on your choice of a contractor." (I wonder if they think I would just be trying this myself ... ha!) Honestly, by this point, I was like, WTF? So even if you charge twice as much, I am stuck with having to go through you just because you happen to own the tank at my house?

(3) Have any of you changed propane companies? I know I can do it, I just want to know what's involved. Obviously I don't want to pay big bucks to switch only to find myself in the same situation.

Thanks in advance!!

[flyonpa]

I would think a small Gasoline powered Generator could solve the problem better,

The Pellet "System" and the pumps on the Oil system would not draw that much power, and you would have power to space to run other things.

[karen_in_nh_2012]

Definitely do not want a gas-powered generator for safety reasons. In addition, that would do nothing in terms of providing heat to the back rooms. (Thanks for trying, though. )

[emm74]

call an HVAC/plumbing contractor and get a quote from them, so you can compare. The reality is that you are paying markup for the parts, but pretty much anyone is going to charge you that in order to provide a warranty. An independent installer should also warranty their work though.

[bigbear99]

Blower? You need power for that, just like the pellet stove etc.

You already have two heat sources. Why add a third? Safety fears from a generator? How much risk is there to one? For the heater price you're quoted, you could get a pretty good generator installed.

[nhkev]

I agree with the generator with a transfer switch. that way not only can you have a water pump work off of it. you can also have your refrigerator , boiler, and some lights. Not all generators are gas. you can get them that are fueled through propane.

[flyonpa]

Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012

Definitely do not want a gas-powered generator for safety reasons. In addition, that would do nothing in terms of providing heat to the back rooms. (Thanks for trying, though. )

Least Cost would be a Gasoline Gen you roll out into the driveway when needed.

The Electricity that it creates would be able to power the Oil Burner to provide heat to the rooms that do not get heat from the pellet stove. (Would also provide Power to the Pellet Stove Feeder, and some other uses in the house)

If you want something more permanent you can put in a StandBy Propane Backup Generator. A "Most of house system" would cost in the $4-7500 range (installed). You need to figure out how much you want to power, A "Most of House" with auto transfer switch, will more or less do everything that runs on 110V power. And 1 220V circuit (like the well Pump).

You cannot run the AC or Dryer(Electric) on the BU Gen.

Not sure how big your propane tank is but with a BU Gen you might need a bigger Tank. Running at 50% load, they use a little less then 1Gal Per Hr.

[supton]

Propane tanks have problems delivering enough propane when cold. If you can store the tank inside (!) it wouldn't be a problem; and it's less of a problem as the temps rise. But when I looked into it, I realized that it was when it was below 0F that I really wanted my generator to work. I couldn't trust propane during winter. And of course gas generators have upkeep problems. So for now I just trust in PSNH.

I'd think a pellet stove is a light load, no? A small gas generator might be annoying to keep working (starting once a month etc) but could be sized to run the stove and fridge and well pump, plus a couple of lights. Ok might not be so small, but I'm still thinking it's the best answer.

[karen_in_nh_2012]

Thanks for the additional replies! Answers below.

Originally Posted by emm74

call an HVAC/plumbing contractor and get a quote from them, so you can compare. The reality is that you are paying markup for the parts, but pretty much anyone is going to charge you that in order to provide a warranty. An independent installer should also warranty their work though.

I have a couple more contractors coming in the next couple of weeks. I want to get this taken care of this summer (especially the furnace replacement) so I have time to think about it and make a good decision.

Originally Posted by bigbear99

Blower? You need power for that, just like the pellet stove etc.

You already have two heat sources. Why add a third? Safety fears from a generator? How much risk is there to one? For the heater price you're quoted, you could get a pretty good generator installed.

Yes, the blower requires electricity, but propane heaters I've had/seen provide heat even WITHOUT the blower (although it's not distributed as well, obviously). I would likely need it for a few hours maximum, given how infrequent outages are in my area.

And yes, I already have 2 heat sources, but as I wrote in the OP, when I use my primary source (the pellet insert), very little heat gets to the back rooms -- that's the TV room on the first floor and the 2 back bedrooms on the 2nd.

Originally Posted by nhkev

I agree with the generator with a transfer switch. that way not only can you have a water pump work off of it. you can also have your refrigerator , boiler, and some lights. Not all generators are gas. you can get them that are fueled through propane.

Originally Posted by flyonpa

Least Cost would be a Gasoline Gen you roll out into the driveway when needed.

The Electricity that it creates would be able to power the Oil Burner to provide heat to the rooms that do not get heat from the pellet stove. (Would also provide Power to the Pellet Stove Feeder, and some other uses in the house)

If you want something more permanent you can put in a StandBy Propane Backup Generator. A "Most of house system" would cost in the $4-7500 range (installed). You need to figure out how much you want to power, A "Most of House" with auto transfer switch, will more or less do everything that runs on 110V power. And 1 220V circuit (like the well Pump).

You cannot run the AC or Dryer(Electric) on the BU Gen.

Not sure how big your propane tank is but with a BU Gen you might need a bigger Tank. Running at 50% load, they use a little less then 1Gal Per Hr.

I'm getting several replies telling me to get a generator, which tells me I didn't make clear that I also wanted to get the heaters for the HEAT -- not just because they will work in a power outage. I can spend several thousands of dollars on a back-up generator with a transfer switch that will rarely if ever be needed (it's the portable ones that I don't want for safety reasons), or I can get more gas connections at my house AND 1-2 propane heaters now. I am not happy with the price, and I hope the other contractors come up with something more affordable, but the installation includes a "manifold" (I think that's what he called it) so that I can easily add more things later (e.g., the gas cooktop when I re-do my kitchen, a 2nd propane heater for the hall that faces the back bedrooms, etc.). Does this make more sense? Sorry I wasn't clear!

What I was really interested in was whether the price seemed decent or outrageous or somewhere in between. I guess I will know after the other contractors come!

ETA: just checked Home Depot for generator prices ... they are actually reasonable, given my relatively low needs. Hmmm ... it really MIGHT make more sense for me to get one of those and just continue to use an oil-filled radiator as needed in the TV room. Thanks for helping me think more about this (and my usual reps to all! ).

Originally Posted by supton

Propane tanks have problems delivering enough propane when cold. If you can store the tank inside (!) it wouldn't be a problem; and it's less of a problem as the temps rise. But when I looked into it, I realized that it was when it was below 0F that I really wanted my generator to work. I couldn't trust propane during winter. And of course gas generators have upkeep problems. So for now I just trust in PSNH.

I'd think a pellet stove is a light load, no? A small gas generator might be annoying to keep working (starting once a month etc) but could be sized to run the stove and fridge and well pump, plus a couple of lights. Ok might not be so small, but I'm still thinking it's the best answer.

Your post popped up while I was writing! I am surprised that you have had problems with propane in cold temps -- where I live, they are always outdoors, as far as I know, and in 15 years I have never had a problem with them no matter how cold the temps are. (At my last house, which is now a rental, I used propane for the water heater, the clothes dryer, the gas range, and very occasionally for a propane heater; at this house, I use it for the water heater and the clothes dryer. Again, no problems at all.)

[Samiamnh]

Originally Posted by flyonpa

I would think a small Gasoline powered Generator could solve the problem better,

The Pellet "System" and the pumps on the Oil system would not draw that much power, and you would have power to space to run other things.

I'd suggest a propane generator.....run much cleaner