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Teachers matter. A bad teacher is a bad teacher. A great teacher is a great teacher. Most are in the middle.
However, take all the schools in Millburn as an example, and fill it with kids who come from poor families, from somewhere else. Then take all of the rich kids and put them in the school where the poor kids came from.
Something tells me the performance would follow the kids, not the teachers.
From what I see, the teachers union often won't take the responsibility when the performance is poor. They'll claim that it's the nature of the populations they are working with (poor etc).
But then in the rich towns, they will gladly take the credit for the high performance there. It's a win-win.
Parents matter more than the teachers on the big picture, but individual teachers matter too.
i think great parental involvement can overcome the difference between an "average" teacher and an "above average" teacher.
and i would generally agree about switching millburn students and a crappier district's students (not sure why poor matters, but ok).
and yes, teachers' union doesn't take responsibility for "bad" performing districts/students like i think they should.
but....i've seen first hand with my uncle and his kids at their school that even a highly involved parent can't overcome bad teachers. my cousin was told by his history teacher after getting a C in his class that "your father expects too much of you". put teachers like that in millburn, and i don't care how involved the parents are...that school isn't going to produce many kids that know a lot about History.
this isn't about wealthy vs poor either. i know plenty of kids of wealthy parents whose parents aren't involved. they get neglected too.
i think parent involvement is extremely important, but i also value above average teachers, and would love to see the schools come up with a system of sharing their skills and ideas with other teachers.
and i have no idea where most NJ public school teachers went to school.
i think great parental involvement can overcome the difference between an "average" teacher and an "above average" teacher.
and i would generally agree about switching millburn students and a crappier district's students (not sure why poor matters, but ok).
and yes, teachers' union doesn't take responsibility for "bad" performing districts/students like i think they should.
but....i've seen first hand with my uncle and his kids at their school that even a highly involved parent can't overcome bad teachers. my cousin was told by his history teacher after getting a C in his class that "your father expects too much of you". put teachers like that in millburn, and i don't care how involved the parents are...that school isn't going to produce many kids that know a lot about History.
this isn't about wealthy vs poor either. i know plenty of kids of wealthy parents whose parents aren't involved. they get neglected too.
i think parent involvement is extremely important, but i also value above average teachers, and would love to see the schools come up with a system of sharing their skills and ideas with other teachers.
and i have no idea where most NJ public school teachers went to school.
Well yeah, more like socioeconomic status instead of poor, which includes a lot of things, not just income.
On your example of the history teacher, one thing that will happen in a town like Millburn versus a lower SES town, is that parents will complain and loudly if there is a teacher like that. And they will be heard. In a lower SES district, parents might complain but the administration will ignore them more.
I also think that in general we focus too much on the teachers, and we focus too little on the principals. A principal can absolutely make or break a school.
Put me down in the group as thinking people assign too much importance to the individual teacher as opposed to the student and parents.
Can a very bad teacher have a negative impact to a child? Probably. Can a very good teacher have an impact to a child? Probably. But I'm thinking these are the extremes that make up a very small percentage.
Well yeah, more like socioeconomic status instead of poor, which includes a lot of things, not just income.
On your example of the history teacher, one thing that will happen in a town like Millburn versus a lower SES town, is that parents will complain and loudly if there is a teacher like that. And they will be heard. In a lower SES district, parents might complain but the administration will ignore them more.
I also think that in general we focus too much on the teachers, and we focus too little on the principals. A principal can absolutely make or break a school.
i don't remember my principles' names at all. doesn't mean they weren't important though.
from my experience as a student, my teachers were very normal people that basically ran program. they didnt do anything amazing or terrible. im pretty sure the test scores and graduation rates were quite good. i dont like to ridicule any working person but the basic idea is you hire the person that can do the job, not more and not less.
Put me down in the group as thinking people assign too much importance to the individual teacher as opposed to the student and parents.
Can a very bad teacher have a negative impact to a child? Probably. Can a very good teacher have an impact to a child? Probably. But I'm thinking these are the extremes that make up a very small percentage.
i personally don't think it's extremes though.
the way our education system is curently set up, virtually across the country, is such that people who either have no idea what else to do with their lives or people who couldn't do something else with their lives decide "i'll be a teacher".
then, our requirements for teachers, in my opinion, are pretty weak. we also don't pay teachers as much as many other countries do, so instead of getting the best and brightest math minds, science minds, etc...they go into industry where the money is. now, i know "compensation" for teachers isn't exactly horrible, given the benefits. but this is just my opinion. i'm pretty sure i've posted an article from the washington post a few months ago about this topic.
just go back to your high school graduating class, and think about the folks you know who went into teaching. i hope i'm wrong...but i don't think i'm alone in my view of this.
from my experience as a student, my teachers were very normal people that basically ran program. they didnt do anything amazing or terrible. im pretty sure the test scores and graduation rates were quite good. i dont like to ridicule any working person but the basic idea is you hire the person that can do the job, not more and not less.
if you are hiring someone who can put toothpaste caps on the toothpaste tube...you can hire anyone who can do the job, but some will be quicker than others, and some might even think of a better way of doing it.
you just want any old schmo that can put cap on tube though? i want the better workers. and i certainly want the better teachers.
i wonder if people pick out their lawyers this way. plenty of lawyers can do the job, but some do it better than others. plumbers? how hard is it to screw pipes together. do you just pick a name out of the phone book when you need work done?
come on...you know you try to hire the best people you can for a job.
if you are hiring someone who can put toothpaste caps on the toothpaste tube...you can hire anyone who can do the job, but some will be quicker than others, and some might even think of a better way of doing it.
you just want any old schmo that can put cap on tube though? i want the better workers. and i certainly want the better teachers.
i wonder if people pick out their lawyers this way. plenty of lawyers can do the job, but some do it better than others. plumbers? how hard is it to screw pipes together. do you just pick a name out of the phone book when you need work done?
come on...you know you try to hire the best people you can for a job.
i try to hire the best people i can at the rate that i can afford to pay them to do the job right.
i also think all pension benefits should be stopped. pay people the money in income and if they choose to save thats their choice. thats my pension plan, what i save.
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