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Not ignorance, reality. Has been for years. Glad to know you live on a such a "special" street in Edison.
Do you live in Edison? Because I actually do. I also jog 20-30 miles a week in my neighborhood and know the streets pretty well and my street is not "special." There are many Indian owned homes and they are NOT inhabited by "20 large." They are also some of the nicest and best landscaped homes in the neighborhood. The influx of asian families to Edison keeps real estate prices up and also helps to maintain the local economy. Maybe my part of Edison (North Edison) is different from the rest of Edison but just because a few individuals pack people into homes does not mean the entire race does. That is just an ignorant assumption.
Hiring someone from another country to fill an open job in the US isn't increasing unemployment level, it's maintaining the unemployment level.
Why is that ? When someone from another country comes to work here, how does that affect GDP and/or other variables that determine unemployment ? Are you aware that economic growth is the primary driver of employment ?
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Hiring/employing cheap foreign labor whether it be on American soil or off American soil is one in the same.
Why is foreign labor "cheap" ? Or to put it another way, how is it possible that a job is worth more when an American performs it ?
America could just allow the dollar to fall so that America's labor costs are more competitive. Why don't they do this ? Or to put it another way, why is the American dollar higher ?
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Yet there is a huge outcry against off-shoring....? Go figure.
Yes, because there are a lot of very ignorant people who know absolutely nothing about economics, and yet insist on expressing passionate opinions despite being ignorant. Their "opinions" are worth about as much as my dog's "opinion" on general relativity.
This idea that I'm on some kind of high horse about this is just silly.
I'm not trying to pass myself off as some kind of expert, but I do finance-related work for a living, read FT/WSJ and have done some reading in economics.
Most of the protectionists here have plenty of views to express on economics, but are completely ignorant on the topic. Like I wrote before, asking them for an opinion on economics is like asking my dog for an opinion on general relativity.
You'd think that those who are interested in expressing a view on a topic would also be interested in learning about that topic, but I guess some people just like making fools of themselves on internet forums
Why is that ? When someone from another country comes to work here, how does that affect GDP and/or other variables that determine unemployment ? Are you aware that economic growth is the primary driver of employment ?
Going off of what you said. When a foreign national takes a job in the USA it's not helping the USA unemployment rate. It's not messing with it either b/c it's all about the AMERICAN's who are not employed.
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Why is foreign labor "cheap" ? Or to put it another way, how is it possible that a job is worth more when an American performs it ?
Never said a job was "worth more". When an American (fresh out of DeVry) wants $50K to sit on a first tier help desk and a foreigner (with 10 years experience and was a doctor in New Dehli before he found his calling) will do the same for $35K...who do you think gets the job? What isn't clicking?
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America could just allow the dollar to fall so that America's labor costs are more competitive. Why don't they do this ? Or to put it another way, why is the American dollar higher ?
America could let the dollar fall, but that won't change what the Fed or state squeezes out of anyone for taxes or what day-to-day expenses are. How DO you go backward? REAL life isn't based on Macro or Micro E. textbooks let alone "theory" driven BS.
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Yes, because there are a lot of very ignorant people who know absolutely nothing about economics, and yet insist on expressing passionate opinions despite being ignorant. Their "opinions" are worth about as much as my dog's "opinion" on general relativity.
And real life is a totally different issue. Economics is THEORY driven, as in "la-la land". No real-time.. always AFTER THE FACT to explain why crap happened.
In economics, If "A" happens, then "B" and "C" should follow...don't work that way. Humans get involved in the mix and then the perfect design gets all screwed up.
Going off of what you said. When a foreign national takes a job in the USA it's not helping the USA unemployment rate. It's not messing with it either b/c it's all about the AMERICAN's who are not employed.
No, you're still wrong. If the economy grows as a result of that job, then either more jobs are created or there are better paying jobs.
To get "real world" on this -- suppose a productive worker adds new features to a product, and a result, the company attracts more clients. Then they need to open up more sales and support offices, and some of these jobs go to Americans.
Alternatively, suppose that as a result of this new feature, an American client becomes more productive. Then their profit increases, leading them to either
(1) pay more dividends to their American investors, who either (a) re-invest in a growth industry (more jobs), (b) spend the dividend money in the local economy (more retail sales, which means more jobs) or (2) maybe the company re-invests the corporate profits by expanding.
The bottom line is, GDP growth begets jobs. This is not some far-fetched "theory" -- not only those ivory tower economists all across the political spectrum agree, it is observable. When we're in a recession, unemployment numbers go up -- and not only that, but those who do have jobs become more stressed out, willing to work for less, etc -- all the effects that you (mis)attribute to foreign workers. When we have strong economic growth, unemployment goes down.
Having productive workers in the US means that well paying jobs are in the US.
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Never said a job was "worth more". When an American (fresh out of DeVry) wants $50K to sit on a first tier help desk and a foreigner (with 10 years experience and was a doctor in New Dehli before he found his calling) will do the same for $35K...who do you think gets the job? What isn't clicking?
Yes, but did you ever consider why this was the case ? If the Indian really is smarter than the American, why will they work for a lower pay check ?
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America could let the dollar fall, but that won't change what the Fed or state squeezes out of anyone for taxes or what day-to-day expenses are.
But if you really could do the protectionist thing and stop all trade, then day to day expenses would not change at all -- it wouldn't matter what the exchange rate was.
The truth is, and deep down, you know this, is that if we stopped trading, everyone would have "high paying" jobs, and everything would cost much more because we wouldn't have access to cheap imports. This would affect everything because not only manufactured goods would go up, so would materials (e.g. steel) So what we learn from this is that protectionism appears, superficially to increase wages, but it would also increase costs so much as to undercut the living standards we enjoy today.
So getting back to the question of why the American dollar is a strong currency, it is largely because this is a productive economy. And it is a productive economy because we don't pander to idiots who want to keep producers out of the country for fear of "taking jobs" from the non-producers who are the beneficiaries of the producer's labor.
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How DO you go backward? REAL life isn't based on Macro or Micro E. textbooks let alone "theory" driven BS.
And real life is a totally different issue.
The effect of trade and immigration on the economy is a question about economics. When discussing economics, the accumulated wisdom of generations of some of the greatest thinkers in the history of western civilization trumps the scribblings of the willfully ignorant.
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Economics is THEORY driven, as in "la-la land". No real-time.. always AFTER THE FACT to explain why crap happened.
Completely wrong. Parts of it are observable and testable in control trials much like psychological experiments (e.g. behavioral aspects of economics). Other parts have been observed so many times that no reasonable and informed observer doubts them -- in particular, the notion that recessions result in unemployment and that growth results in job creation is not really up for serious debate anymore.
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In economics, If "A" happens, then "B" and "C" should follow...don't work that way. Humans get involved in the mix and then the perfect design gets all screwed up.
It's true that if your assumptions are wrong, the conclusions drawn from those assumptions may also be wrong.
That doesn't mean that you shouldn't ever attempt to do any reasoning whatsoever, and it also doesn't mean that all conclusions have equal merit, or that the prejudices of the ignorant presented under the banner of "real life" are superior to reasoning.
Last edited by elflord1973; 09-01-2009 at 06:32 AM..
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