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I think you meant that I had made an "illogical" jump. Nice try though.
You could also have said that I engaged in a non sequitur. I disagree, and please notice, I am not calling you an "idiot." Let's keep things positive, shall we?
I think the parallel between admissions methods was completely justified.
Like I said, quite the logical jump. Your "logic" is convoluted. The jump you made with it was astounding.
When you say In order to get into any of the specialized schools, a student needs to do especially well on one standardized test. This is a system that even the best colleges in America do NOT use. Indeed, this method of selection is called “high-stakes testing” and few educators would agree that it is a valid meansfor admission anywhere.
and conclude
Therefore statistics show that although 52% of New Yorkers are black and Hispanic and pay taxes for the public education system, only 4.6% of the students at Stuyvesant High School are black and Hispanic.
Basically the specialized system is geared to separate students based on race. White and Asian students get their own, “special” schools of remarkable quality, while black and Latino students receive racially segregated schools which are often dangerous.
I would have to conclude that you are trolling (to get people to debate whether or not those races are smarter than the others) or just ignorant of things like nuance.
1. All High school selection is based solely on grades (or in the specialized schools case, a test score) except for LaGuardia (a performing arts school), where it takes an audition. Nobody is interviewing these kids, nor does anyone have the time to. What would you like them to add? A teacher's flowery recommendation of some little 12/13 year old child?
Unless you're going to reserve a spot for the top performing 7th graders (because it is 7th grade school grades that are used when not using those test scores), this is the best way.
2. The emphasis some parents place on grades and test scores in certain homes. You cannot understand how badly some parents simply will their children to good test scores by pressure in the home. As little children, they can't escape it. Which is also the reason you get the suicide and burnout rates that we have when they get to college and nobody is there to simply push them.
Here's a sample on how high test scores can be achieved: The Difficult Life of a Korean Student | LifeAfterCubes Tiger Mothers: Raising Children The Chinese Way : NPR
3. Those specialized High Schools are not the only good schools in the city. Look up schools like Townsend Harris, Midwood, and Murrow.
Is it POSSIBLE that certain races might be inherently smarter than others?
Is ASKING that question racist?
With no regard for the answer?
The question is dicey I know...but it IS the elephant in the room.
Are orientals in the U.S. smarter than whites in the U.S. and are both smarter than blacks and hispanics in the U.S.
What do you think? Are the tests valid for measuring IQ? Does IQ mean anything other than a way to discriminate?
Your thoughts?
No, I think not. I do not think Asians are inherently smarter than Whites anymore than Whites are smarter than Blacks.
Of course, there are academic discrepancies, the so-called elephant in the room. Racists say its the natural order while liberals say its school spending. Hogwash.
Its culture. If you are brought up to value education and your parents, assuming you have them, push, push, push, then you will benefit. If you grow up in a culture that devalues it, well, we all know the consequences.
This is bad culture. Lucky for humanity, culture is not static. This present state of affairs need not be permanent.
Asians, many low income, many with parents having a huge language barriers, and many who suffer discrimination. They have shown in-actual-fact how to educationally succeed. The percentages at the top high schools are astounding. All that hand-waving about culturally biased tests, discrimination in favor of whites, theories about how to educate the disadvantaged etc etc all pales compared to what NYC Asians have actually achieved.
In this life there is talk, and there is doing. Instead of trying to theroize or to reinvent the wheel, look at the successful and copy.
OK, carry on with the various theories, carry on wasting time and kid's futures.
The barriers are not the same. Most Asians are not locked into generational poverty living in communities with the same social problems as Blacks and Latinos of any race. Asians also traditionally have a culture of educational progression, you can't say the same for inner city Blacks and Latinos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King
Is it POSSIBLE that certain races might be inherently smarter than others?
Is ASKING that question racist?
With no regard for the answer?
The question is dicey I know...but it IS the elephant in the room.
Are orientals in the U.S. smarter than whites in the U.S. and are both smarter than blacks and hispanics in the U.S.
What do you think? Are the tests valid for measuring IQ? Does IQ mean anything other than a way to discriminate?
Your thoughts?
The problems with your theory is that many Latinos are White or Asian and still failing. At the same time our colleges in NYC are full of students studying abroad from Latin America and Africa.
The barriers are not the same. Most Asians are not locked into generational poverty living in communities with the same social problems as Blacks and Latinos of any race. Asians also traditionally have a culture of educational progression, you can't say the same for inner city Blacks and Latinos.
Education is how you sever the lineage of generational poverty.
Education is how you sever the lineage of generational poverty.
The problem of course is getting those kids to value education. The parents are often not in the picture or do not encourage the children in poor Black and Latinos communities. The community encourages street life, violence, ghetto-fication. The community has a monopoly on influence in these areas.
I think culture is 50% of the controlling factor, the other 50% is heredity/genetics and leadership. One example of this is Steve Jobs; his biological father was an entrepreneur and biological sister was a successful author. Meanwhile his stepparents who raised him since he was a baby were regular folk who didn't specialize in any field.
Jobs ended up taking after his biological relatives in that sense, and perused his intellectual interests by his own will. He did not need prep school, tutors, or special programs to give him what his stepparents couldn't.
Like I said, quite the logical jump. Your "logic" is convoluted. The jump you made with it was astounding.
When you say In order to get into any of the specialized schools, a student needs to do especially well on one standardized test. This is a system that even the best colleges in America do NOT use. Indeed, this method of selection is called “high-stakes testing” and few educators would agree that it is a valid meansfor admission anywhere.
and conclude
Therefore statistics show that although 52% of New Yorkers are black and Hispanic and pay taxes for the public education system, only 4.6% of the students at Stuyvesant High School are black and Hispanic.
Basically the specialized system is geared to separate students based on race. White and Asian students get their own, “special” schools of remarkable quality, while black and Latino students receive racially segregated schools which are often dangerous.
I would have to conclude that you are trolling (to get people to debate whether or not those races are smarter than the others) or just ignorant of things like nuance.
1. All High school selection is based solely on grades (or in the specialized schools case, a test score) except for LaGuardia (a performing arts school), where it takes an audition. Nobody is interviewing these kids, nor does anyone have the time to. What would you like them to add? A teacher's flowery recommendation of some little 12/13 year old child?
Unless you're going to reserve a spot for the top performing 7th graders (because it is 7th grade school grades that are used when not using those test scores), this is the best way.
2. The emphasis some parents place on grades and test scores in certain homes. You cannot understand how badly some parents simply will their children to good test scores by pressure in the home. As little children, they can't escape it. Which is also the reason you get the suicide and burnout rates that we have when they get to college and nobody is there to simply push them.
Here's a sample on how high test scores can be achieved: The Difficult Life of a Korean Student | LifeAfterCubes Tiger Mothers: Raising Children The Chinese Way : NPR
3. Those specialized High Schools are not the only good schools in the city. Look up schools like Townsend Harris, Midwood, and Murrow.
Maybe I'm an idiot too, I only have a masters degree, but the original post wasn't an exercise in logic, it was an attempt to express something the OP found shocking.
1. I don't think all high schools admit students purely on the basis of grades. If they do, it's for purely practical reasons. You can't expect Neighborhood High to have the admissions office of a Stanford University. If you are going to create specialized high schools, get the idea right and find a good means of selecting the best and the brightest, not the best test takers.
I got the OP's gist when she said that not even the best colleges use this type of method. Basically, the method sucks. Nobody uses it except the NY BOE. It's from 1972. That's nary 40 years ago.
Times change. Let's keep up with the Jones baby.
2. Most reviewers and educators, from what I remember, found the book Tiger Mom to be appalling. There's a right way to get to the right destination and Amy Chua wasn't using it. She admits to calling one of her children "garbage" in the book. She refused to feed or provide water to one of her children until the child had mastered a piano piece.
3. Nobody said that the specialized schools were the only good schools. For someone who expects punctilious logic, please tell me why you left yours at the door?
Main points for me:
1) We can't have racially segregated schools. That's wrong. Period.
2) The method to get into these schools is out-of-date. Period.
Also, it's RANDOM!!!!!! They use scrambled paragraphs to help determine who gets into these schools. There is no other test in America that asks students to unscramble paragraphs. It's crazy.
Case closed. Somebody needs to change these specialized schools.
I don't know why in all the statistics there is always an achievement gap and blacks and latino (I know with latino you include foreign born ESL students so its a little unfair) are always on the negative side of that equation. Always on the failing side of standardized testing, low graduation rates, etc. Can someone please answer this question.
And I am only going by NY, CT, MA, PA standards. if anyone else knows of areas where this is not the case, please let me know.
I am not trying to be mean or insult any race, just trying to get a better understanding of this.
Because I think it is unfair to change a test so that other can pass it.
It has been proven many times that Asians have the highest average IQ scores, followed by Whites, and Blacks have the lowest average IQ. This result stands even if controlled for family income and education.
Stuyvesant admissions numbers are just a reflection of this fact, because they use a standardized test with result that is very highly correlated with IQ.
Education is how you sever the lineage of generational poverty.
This is true and some Black, Latins, and others go on to college, grad, and post grad degrees without going to specialized high schools.
Some choose not to go after being accepted because they know after taking the test, and sliding in, that they may not be able to come out at the top of their class.
My younger cousin realized that she couldn't graduate from Bronx Science in the top percentile rank of her class when she entered the 10th grade. While she is very bright, and she was in the middle, her parents spoke to a few college admissions people and were told that percentile rank in class matters, and that it didn't matter that she went to Bronx Science and was somewhere in the middle of her class.
She knew she wouldn't be able to get a much higher rank in another 2 years time, or ever. So she transferred to another school that offered the same curriculum, with the more advanced courses taken at the CUNY nearby. She graduated at the top of her class, and was able to go on to an Ivy for both undergrad and Grad school.
You have to know what will be best for the individual child. Just because a person doesn't go to a NYC specialized high school does not mean that they will not be successful in life.
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