Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Honestly listen to Straightshooter, I would agree with nearly all of what he says.
I am a somewhat statisfied student at a TTT, with no plans on big law, so it'll work out for me. I did pretty good on the LSATs so I won't have that much debt coming out of my TTT.
The LSAT is nearly all that matters for admissions though. The admission boards don't give a rat's a$$ about any clubs or volunteer work. Sure it takes up space on your resume, which is a good thing, but they don't really care about it.
Prestige of the school is important, but LSAT trumps prestige. Also prestige from your law school is huge once you graduate. Generally you won't be able to make it to big law unless your school is in the Top 14 or so.
Don't underestimate the affirmative action bonus points though. I have a couple of friends who had good GPA's, but LSATs only in the low 160s / high 150s. They got into top ranked law schools though because they technically had minority status (they were half mexican or half black) and therefore they got in, even though if you met these guys you'd think they were white. Its all a scam, and will probably be coming to and end shortly, but the schools still give you a lot of extra points for admission so you can be the token minority student in the class.
To end up in Big Law though you really need to get into the Top 14 law schools, the higher the better. If you are in a Top 50 school, in order to end up in Big law you'll need to be somewhere around the 10% of your class and be on law review. If your school is a TTT you'll have to be Top 1-5% of your class, be on law review, and will also have to interview very well. (With Ivy Leagues the firms don't care so much about how you interview, as long as your gpa isn't in the toilet and you have 2 legs and a pulse some firm will eventually take you).
Big Law isn't for me though, so I'm not concerned that I go to a TTT. I hear the starting salaries at the big firms were supposed to creep up to $190k this year, but all of this financial turmoil put the brakes on that.
I have a couple of relatives who ended up in Big Law. My one Uncle hates his job/life and when I told him I got into law school he responded by saying to me "my condolences," . I also have an Aunt who made it to Big law but then ended up having a nervous breakdown because she couldn't take the pressure & long hours. She tried to recoup from that by working at some law library, but couldn't even handle that. So now she just stays at home for most of the day and watches her kid.
I wish everyone who ends up in Big Law the best of luck, but it just isn't for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mason12
and your already on the track to becoming the arrogant alumni. Dude seroiusly, just because your more honest than other people doesn't mean your're smarter. And i've also talked to an attorney and law professor about this not a "law student". I'll take everyones advice into consideration and i will be seeing you the future sometime straightshooter.
not really everything he said was honest and already known
I still plan on going to CUNY and probaly majoring in economics and minoring in pyschology, regardless of what anyone says. It helps when talking or aruging people to know how their mind works. It's something you learn mostly intuitively, but pyschology and crime is a field initself. I already knew about clubs and all that ****, but they are "soft factors" like queens say that help nonetheless. How is pyshics relvant to law, besides deeper comprehension of theory? I don't see how it is, I'd rather major in something that I like and will help me with my future job than do it cuz it looks like hot ****. Also how good are your chances of getting a job from just a ba economics degree in nyc?
I see you are into psychology and the law. If this is your interest then go to John Jay College and major in Criminal Justice w/ Forensic Psychology minor. Most of John Jay's programs are cross sectioned where you will be able to take Psychology and Legal Studies courses that will count toward your major. Be sure to express that you are pursuing a career in law and hook up with the law advisor at the school and she will assist in preparing you toward the law school application process.
Honestly listen to Straightshooter, I would agree with nearly all of what he says.
I am a somewhat statisfied student at a TTT, with no plans on big law, so it'll work out for me. I did pretty good on the LSATs so I won't have that much debt coming out of my TTT.
The LSAT is nearly all that matters for admissions though. The admission boards don't give a rat's a$$ about any clubs or volunteer work. Sure it takes up space on your resume, which is a good thing, but they don't really care about it.
Prestige of the school is important, but LSAT trumps prestige. Also prestige from your law school is huge once you graduate. Generally you won't be able to make it to big law unless your school is in the Top 14 or so.
Don't underestimate the affirmative action bonus points though. I have a couple of friends who had good GPA's, but LSATs only in the low 160s / high 150s. They got into top ranked law schools though because they technically had minority status (they were half mexican or half black) and therefore they got in, even though if you met these guys you'd think they were white. Its all a scam, and will probably be coming to and end shortly, but the schools still give you a lot of extra points for admission so you can be the token minority student in the class.
To end up in Big Law though you really need to get into the Top 14 law schools, the higher the better. If you are in a Top 50 school, in order to end up in Big law you'll need to be somewhere around the 10% of your class and be on law review. If your school is a TTT you'll have to be Top 1-5% of your class, be on law review, and will also have to interview very well. (With Ivy Leagues the firms don't care so much about how you interview, as long as your gpa isn't in the toilet and you have 2 legs and a pulse some firm will eventually take you).
Big Law isn't for me though, so I'm not concerned that I go to a TTT. I hear the starting salaries at the big firms were supposed to creep up to $190k this year, but all of this financial turmoil put the brakes on that.
I have a couple of relatives who ended up in Big Law. My one Uncle hates his job/life and when I told him I got into law school he responded by saying to me "my condolences," . I also have an Aunt who made it to Big law but then ended up having a nervous breakdown because she couldn't take the pressure & long hours. She tried to recoup from that by working at some law library, but couldn't even handle that. So now she just stays at home for most of the day and watches her kid.
I wish everyone who ends up in Big Law the best of luck, but it just isn't for me.
Another future attorney at law. What class will you be graduating?I don't want to do BIGLAW either maybe MIDLAW as my interest lie in Labor and Employment Law. What will be your specialization? You stated you are "somewhat satisfied" could you elaborate? I kind of want to see....and probably the poster too the dichotomous relationship between attending a top school verses a lower ranked. How did your summers go in terms of job search? Is the career service dept. any good? Quality of professors?
The poster hasn't stated that s/he is a URM but I am and I see the boost given to URM's as a device to provide diversity which can be debated in another forum.
If you caught what I later wrote I said that some majors do have an advantage but it is not that important. Will Yale deny a 4.0 English major from Syracuse w/ a 175 LSAT? Probably not that person is likely an auto-admit. Bet they reject the 2.5 w/ 175 from Dartmouth who majored in English or even Math because of the GPA which top schools like to keep inflated(>3.7)
Yale will not deny a 4.0 English major from the cuse with a 175 LSAT for two reasons. One, he has a 175 LSAT. Two, he has a 4.0, which is impressvie, regardless of where you went to school. Yale will reject the Dartmouth 2.5 English grad. However, I bet that they admit the 175/2.5 math grad. Hard sciences, math, and economics are the last hold outs from grade inflation. Like I wrote on my first post, most hard science, math, and economics classes are still graded on a curve, and the median of the curve is either a 'C' or a 'C+.'
Quote:
Congrats on being in LS may I ask which one as I am applying this cycle. What specialization will you pursue and what class are you, 08',09'?
Fordham '09. I don't know about specialization yet. I enjoy litigation and placed 9th in the appellate advocacy competition last year. I have a couple 2nd round interviews at top 20 firms coming up soon for next summer. But, I still don't know if I'm sold on M&A, structured finance, or any of the other big money areas. Too narrow, too many monkeys, and i'm not trying to look 60 at age 35.
Quote:
Would also like to know more about a 2.5/174, that is a major splitter and being admitted into DUKE the person had to have a great PS or soft factors(work experience) as that is an anomaly.
He had no soft factors. He had a 174 LSAT. We both went to Cornell, but he attended the state school and a cush major. He had no work experience, either. His experience testifies to what a 98th %-tile LSAT can get you.
Quote:
I'm actually applying to DUKE,UNC,Wake,GW,G'Town and maybe Michigan.
Good luck with that. all of those schools are ultra competitive. you better believe they will scrutinize all the factors discussed infra. if you have a 90th+ %-tile LSAT, a prestigious undergrad school, a legit major, and a high UGPA, then they'll probably read your personal statement. if you can write, then you're in the hunt.
Quote:
Top tiered=nat'l programs and consist of the Top 14 in USN&R and the next 36. Tier 2 is from 51-100 and then you have supposed "TTT(tier three toilets) and FTT(fourth tier toilets).
Actually, this is the first time that i'm hearing those terms.
Quote:
Now since you are in LS I'm sure you are familiar w/ OCI and placement stats. Most students want to go into BIGLAW or big named civil rights firms and those three(Columbia,NYU and Fordham) place the most students in NYC along w/the other top 14.
You'd be surprised how many BLS, Cardozo, and St. John's 1L's i worked next too this summer. I expect more of the same next summer. Don't think for one second that those kids can't hold their own.
Quote:
Brooklyn and Cardozo are good schools but not top tiered, you would need to be top 10%-15% to even be considered for BIGLAW.
This is roughly accurate. I would extend it down to top 20%. Additionally, most want to see law review, journal, or moot court. The cut-off at Fordham isn't much lower, top 20-25% with law review, journal, or moot court.
Quote:
I would have thought a man who relied so heavy on USN&R would see that a #52 ranking and below is "mediocre".
that is why i expounded on that point. normally, i would agree with you. but, the nyc law school market is not normal. students in all the schools i mentioned could have attended any number of higher ranked schools. look at the LSAT/UGPA matrix for the university of iowa. it's supposedly a top-tier school. compare those stats with st. john's. st. john's is harder to get into. the market here is wack. so wack that it's not possible to place those "2d tier law schools" beneath many "top tier law schools." the majority of the students at nyc "2d tier schools" could have easily been admitted to significantly higher ranked law schools elsewhere.
Quote:
BTW,Ohio State and U.Washington are not the only law schools in their state.
# Is there any particular undergraduate coursework that the Committee on Admissions values highly?
The Committee looks for a broad range of courses, some of which are analytically demanding and others that require heavy reading loads and develop research and writing skills.
# What are the grade point averages and LSAT scores of your students?
The 75% and 25% of the most recent entering class are 3.9 and 3.6 for undergraduate GPA, and 172 and 167 for LSAT score, respectively.
It is my understanding, as explained to me by a few law school admissions offices, that the LSAT is the best indicator of how one would fare in his/her first year of law school (alright, straightshoot me, but just remember, this is what I was told, from a few schools! I'll name names if requested!). It is also given that year one of law school is the toughest of the three years.
It is my understanding, as explained to me by a few law school admissions offices, that the LSAT is the best indicator of how one would fare in his/her first year of law school (alright, straightshoot me, but just remember, this is what I was told, from a few schools! I'll name names if requested!). It is also given that year one of law school is the toughest of the three years.
Correct?
You heard right. LSAT is huge and a great score is the gravy to any law school applicant except west coast schools especially w/in the Cal system(Berkeley,UCLA,Davis) and also USC are big GPA whores.
1L is the toughest as the curriculum is very intensive with having to take Legal Research and Writing courses and other breadth courses. Those two classes I believe also have the harshest curves.
It is my understanding, as explained to me by a few law school admissions offices, that the LSAT is the best indicator of how one would fare in his/her first year of law school (alright, straightshoot me, but just remember, this is what I was told, from a few schools! I'll name names if requested!). It is also given that year one of law school is the toughest of the three years.
Correct?
i have heard the LSAT predictor claim, as well. personally, i think it is incorrect. given my LSAT, i was lucky to get admitted to Fordham. however, after my first year, i was in the top 20%. for law schools, the LSAT claim is self-serving. i have yet to see anything published that compares the LSAT scores of a 1st year class to its ranking at the end of the 1st year. however, if law schools can claim that there is a relevant link between the two, then they justify their continued reliance on the LSAT. like our discussions about jobs, there are too many qualified law school candidates out there for the positions available. so, a test is developed to screen applicants. now, i'm not saying that the LSAT is wholly irrelevant. but, i think the continued (and increasing) reliance on it by admissions indicates (1) that today's applicants, on the whole, are highly qualified, (2) that UGPA's are so inflated that they do not reflect a candidate's intellectual abilities, (3) that the proliferation of humanities and social science majors have undermined the value of traditional humanities and social sciences, and (4) that law schools want an easy answer/quick fix to the problems endemic to evaluating an overall qualified applicant pool with unusually high UGPA's while trying to judge the intellectual rigor in english versus communications.
1L is extremely tough. all classes are graded on a strict curve. median grade is 'C+.' the professors are complete and total pricks. and, the workload is outrageous. 2L is better, but i think it's just b/c you better know how to think like a lawyer. so, you can answer the questions more effectively. it is still a grind, though....especially some classes. evidence, corporations, etc. those bring back traumatizing 1L memories.
i have heard the LSAT predictor claim, as well. personally, i think it is incorrect. given my LSAT, i was lucky to get admitted to Fordham. however, after my first year, i was in the top 20%. for law schools, the LSAT claim is self-serving. i have yet to see anything published that compares the LSAT scores of a 1st year class to its ranking at the end of the 1st year. however, if law schools can claim that there is a relevant link between the two, then they justify their continued reliance on the LSAT. like our discussions about jobs, there are too many qualified law school candidates out there for the positions available. so, a test is developed to screen applicants. now, i'm not saying that the LSAT is wholly irrelevant. but, i think the continued (and increasing) reliance on it by admissions indicates (1) that today's applicants, on the whole, are highly qualified, (2) that UGPA's are so inflated that they do not reflect a candidate's intellectual abilities, (3) that the proliferation of humanities and social science majors have undermined the value of traditional humanities and social sciences, and (4) that law schools want an easy answer/quick fix to the problems endemic to evaluating an overall qualified applicant pool with unusually high UGPA's while trying to judge the intellectual rigor in english versus communications.
1L is extremely tough. all classes are graded on a strict curve. median grade is 'C+.' the professors are complete and total pricks. and, the workload is outrageous. 2L is better, but i think it's just b/c you better know how to think like a lawyer. so, you can answer the questions more effectively. it is still a grind, though....especially some classes. evidence, corporations, etc. those bring back traumatizing 1L memories.
Great info. BTW Fordham is an excellent school. I've always had a "crush" on that law school while I was in NYC. Stats show that they are better than most T14 schools in the terms of sending students into BIGLAW pipeline.
I misread the predictor part, and I agree that there is little if no correlation between LSAT and 1L performance. Some people are not good test takers but excel in law school. So the 1L experience is what I thought it would be. How about the competitiveness between students are they hiding books from others? Do Fordham professors use the Socratic method way of teaching? What has been the hardest class for you so far?
Well Fordham Alumni are known to help each other out quite a bit networking wise. Which is definitely a good thing if you went to that school.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. I also have an Aunt who made it to Big law but then ended up having a nervous breakdown because she couldn't take the pressure & long hours. She tried to recoup from that by working at some law library, but couldn't even handle that. So now she just stays at home for most of the day and watches her kid.
