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I'll make my ultimate point. I have no problem in admitting that many recent immigrants at least work, as opposed to NYCHA people who don't. And I would definitely rather be around recent immigrants who do work as opposed to NYCHA residents who are in and out of jail.
But that's like saying someone who works at McDonalds is better or better of than someone who is on welfare. It's not really saying that much.
CaribNY ignored me when I mentioned the corporate world, which has FEW Blacks of any kind and which very few immigrants could enter. Most immigrants (unless they came from wealthy families who could afford to pay for their university education here) are not going to get into Columbia or NYU (though if their children work hard enough, they might).
If you really want to talk about a model minority in NYC, you can talk about Jews. You have a Jewish mayor, a number of Jewish bankers, professors, doctors, dentists, and other people in professions that require one to be highly educated. Because in the NYC area there are so many educated and successful Jews, they have professional and social networks that help them enormously with their careers. Neither West Indians nor AAs (nor Hispanics) have this in NYC, and if you want to advance yourself socioeconomically you'd need to spend considerable time talking with and dealing with non Blacks (and non Hispanics). And yes, there are Jewish people on welfare, but that's more than balanced out by the likes of Bloomberg and a number of other wealthy people.
As I said, CaribNY knows very well the global status of Blacks is poor, and this is a self hatred/defense mechanism. Knowing that Blacks are basically at the bottom of NYC, you try to say you're a different kind of Black (West Indian). But the problem is that if you compare West Indians to "minorities" like Jews and Asians (if you insist on ethnic stereotyping) they don't do so well, do they? I had dental work done at Columbia Dental School, because it was comparatively cheap. There were a few Black dental students, but they were dwarfed by the huge number of Asian dental students. And not one of the dental students had a Caribbean accent, meaning they were either AAs or at least American born.
I feel you do a lot of serious damage and disservice to the discrimination that Blacks and immigrants face in NYC by trolling and starting ethnic fights.
Now if you're going to continue on this topic, ADDRESS the LACK of a significant WEST INDIAN (and all Black) presence in ACADEMIA, in the CORPORATE WORLD, and in JOBS requiring PROFESSIONAL DEGREES. Don't hide, and don't run from this. There's no need for me to supply stats, because you know very well Blacks in general have weak presences in these areas (and I mean all Blacks).
Last edited by NyWriterdude; 12-26-2013 at 07:39 AM..
The DNA tests that I had, and that I was speaking of test a variety of genetic markers on a variety of chromosomes. Not just the Y chromosome, and not just the X or the mitochondrial dna from the mother.
Blacks do lie and exaggerate about the Native American in their family. In my family, there were allegations of Native American in my family . Not only was this not show up in my dna profile, when I searched the census records, the records for everyone I could see was either Black or mulatto.
Substantial Native American ancestry among Blacks from the US is rare, though some people do have small amounts. Now if you speak of Central America or Puerto Rico that's a different story. In those places you have substantially more Native Americans.
I had either no Native American ancestors, or it was so remote that it did not even show up as 1% of my dna.
Oprah Winfrey also tested as 3% East Asian. A lot of Black Americans have traces of Asian dna in them, but Asians aren't a part of popular US folklore (I'm 1% Indian/Pakistani). And of course, many Blacks have some European
I understand but read what I'm stating in that post carefully. No man's DNA will tell him everything, his mother's and paternal grandmother's information is basically not there. The Indian/Pakistani means that one of your ancestors probably your mothers original ancestor from a few hundred or thousand years ago was from what is today that area. Those are the markers you are referring to. They tell you your ancestrial origins after your family left Africa. Everyone starts in Africa. I'm just breaking it down to every day language. That is what I mean by what shows up in men from their mothers. It is not much.
Have your sister if you have one with your same mother, or your mother's sister, or your mothers sister's daughter take the test. Also have your fathers sister, or your fathers sister's daughter take the test.
These 2 test additional test along with yours, will give you a complete analysis of your ancestrial background. If you have 1/32 or more you are just as much Native American as any registered Native American of any tribe in the US.
I have recently completed my training and work as an amatuer genealogist and am now a professional. I can tell you with certainty that most people have been told the truth about their ancestrial lines it just takes getting all the DNA, along with all the documentation. The problem with Black and Native peoples is there are few documents before 1870, and even after slaves could not read for the most part and even seeing records often time names are misspelled because the record keeper just didn't care. Native people were enslaved and classified as Black. Eventually most had children with Blacks. Native slaves were referred to as Brass Ankles because they knew Turtle Island and could escape, they were chained by the ankle at night. Since it was illegal to be in certain states after 1838 most had to keep that they were Native a deep secret. Which unfortunately lives on today.
Percentages really don't matter what matters is that it is substantial that your ancestors survived for a time, and therefore you live today. It doesn't take away the fact that you are Black today. For most of us in a hundred years our posterity will look like some mixture of Asian given that they are the dominant group on the earth right now. They won't be Black or White any more. Just dark or light Asians.
The percentage of blood does not matter. Most Americans that are considered Native American or what are registered tribal members are only 1/32 - 1/16 Native American, but they look Whiter than ones mixed with African blood. Most tribes are not fond of their Black members. They feel that Blacks have already fought for their rights, and they are yet to get theirs. Examples of this is that some reservations in upstate NY didn't get running water and electricity until 1999. The State of South Carolina did not officially recognize their Native American population until 2005. SC said previous stated before 2005 that all of their Native population was sent West on the Trail of Tears. Its complicated.
First off if a West Indian has a lifetime ambition of welfare, why come to the USA where the safety net is skimpy and a life of dependency on public assistance is one of being humiliated and impoverished. Canada is more generous and so if that's the goal why would they migrate to the USA.
People come to the USA to WORK!!!!
I got my stats from NYC Dept of Planning. These stats reflect what was happening in 2011. And why have you not built in the Russian/Hasidic Jews into your model of those who use welfare. Want to see immigrants whose main goal is welfare dependency focus on those groups. Despite their high levels of education immigrant Russians have low labor force participation rates and relatively high welfare dependency as many arrived as refugees.
I am interested in finding out from you why you think that foreign born blacks have higher welfare usage than AAs when their incomes are higher, their poverty rates lower, and their home ownership rates are higher. Estimates are that 5% get some sort of public assistance which includes unemployment insurance as well. And AAs are better off than those PRs who remain in NYC so their situation is even MORE dire.
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Also HRA does NOT break out blacks by ethnicity as indeed the general lament is that every "racial" group is allowed to reflect their ethnicity except blacks who are assumed to be all African American.
I will not debate about what US born blacks of Caribbean descent are doing except to say that their behavior will be something between their immigrant parents and their AA peers. You will have a hard time trying to convince me that they are worse off than AAs. Indeed it has been often predicted by many who study immigrants that those who resemble American minorities (AAs and Hispanics) might as they assimilate, experience downward mobility by picking up negative habit of the native underrepresented minorities. So West Indians, Haitians and maybe Black Africans have this problem, in addition to Dominicans. East and South Asians don't.
This may hurt your feelings but blacks from the English speaking Caribbean are on average better off than AAs. There are a whole host of reason for this, not the least being the very selectivity of migration, and the fact that we arrive speaking English, so don't encounter they difficulties that Dominicans do. Dominicans are also among the least educated migrants to NYC as well.
Indeed a feature of West Indians in 2011 is, despite being less educated (21% college graduates vs. the NYC average of 34%), they earn comparable incomes as do NYers on average and are more likely to be home owners, less likely to be poor, and less likely to live in overcrowded conditions.
This is NYC data. You however walk down White Plains RD, with its very skewed representation of West Indians (you totally miss the middle class who shop in Westchester or in Coop City) and then imagine that AAs are more successful. I have met many middle class AAs who need to hold on to this myth, but its a myth, and you are fooling yourselves by pretending that the plight of a large swathe of AAs doesn't exist. And that this element hasn't had a negative impact on how the off spring of foreign blacks, and Caribbean Hispanics have assimilated into NYC.
I'll answer paragraph by paragraph.
Canada is more generous but Canada doesn't aid their illegals at all. It is much harder to immigrate into Canada legally because of their health care system, they are over burdened already, so they only want contributing people to come in. People on any kind of subsidy in Canada are there legally already. They won't let you put your children on their system either if you are not their legally. Big difference from the US.
Russian/Haisidic Jews are a low population group in the US, the most are probably in this city, and that is still not a high population. Refugees have special considerations and provisions are made for them as you probably know. Black people West Indian and American should start their own organizations and make sure their people are taken care of just like Russian/Haisidic Jews. They have everything in place from Social Services to actual business help tailored to them from the State for their businesses. Many of them are highly educated and they DO get into the work force. Some of the women are house wives because they have large families. Many of the women do enter the work force when the children become of age. Many are getting Social Services because of the large families even when the husband works. Many have turned over trust funds to the State to contribute to the amount of Social Services that they are getting. Some money in trust has to stay there to contribute to the childrens education and higher education because most go to Hebrew schools.
I don't think that foreign Blacks and their children born in the US have a higher welfare use than AA's this is an HRA statistical fact released in 2013 to HRA staff from the City. It may well be 5%, for foreign born I don't know what the percentage is. Remember HRA IS taking into consideration West Indian descent and Children of African Immigrants as well as foreign born.
YOUR statistical information may only consider foreign born, and considerer all born in the US as AA's.
Yes they have broken it down, because they want to know how many AA's are in this city, and how many are on Public Assistance. AA's are not considered the model minority. It is just not released to the public.
All the negative post on this forum concerning AA's reflect the general White society consensus against AA's. Its pushed forward by many Latino and West Indian posters on this forum which I find disheartening. It does hurt my feelings but I will continue to battle on and post the truth and I will never be deterred from doing so. Especially since my Great-Grandparents were Cuban, many younger relatives are part Puerto Rican, African, West Indian, White or Asian and I know many of the people on this forum share the same in their families, so to me all of AA negativity is kind of crazy.
The rest of your post I'll just answer together. I don't want to get into a divide and conquer dialog. The reason that AA's are the smallest group on welfare is that there are less AA's (People with African blood that descend from people that were slaves in the 50 states of the US) that are living here in NYC right now. Most Black people are Carribean, African or some mixture with AA. It is that simple.
AA's are not the smallest group on welfare in NYC because they are doing better, it is because there are just not that many here in NYC anymore.
Prior to 1970 there were many AA home owners. Majority of West Indians started arriving after 1964, AA's started moving out of NYC at around 1970. West Indians started buying AA's homes in Bedstuy, Jamaica Queens, NE Bronx. Later on speading into formerly White areas like Canarsie. Overtime very little AA's in the city, and more West Indians which adds up to more West Indian homeowners, workers and business owners.
I can remember when Black areas like Harlem and the Bronx had many AA homeowners and business owners, now most have left, they and their descendants living in other states.
I have never and will never post anything negative against West Indian, or AA success, or anyones success for that matter. Many AA's are very successful in other states. The successful that are still here are here because they are making it, and the others are probably poor, uneducated, unskilled and stuck.
Unlike another poster I think it is a big deal for one to have all the i's dotted and their t's crossed to be able to spend a half a million dollars on a home even if its in the NE Bronx. Even for people that live in and maintain the homes their parents bought for a quarter of million or less. Its a really big deal.
I understand but read what I'm stating in that post carefully. No man's DNA will tell him everything, his mother's and paternal grandmother's information is basically not there. The Indian/Pakistani means that one of your ancestors probably your mothers original ancestor from a few hundred or thousand years ago was from what is today that area. Those are the markers you are referring to. They tell you your ancestrial origins after your family left Africa. Everyone starts in Africa. I'm just breaking it down to every day language. That is what I mean by what shows up in men from their mothers. It is not much.
Have your sister if you have one with your same mother, or your mother's sister, or your mothers sister's daughter take the test. Also have your fathers sister, or your fathers sister's daughter take the test.
These 2 test additional test along with yours, will give you a complete analysis of your ancestrial background. If you have 1/32 or more you are just as much Native American as any registered Native American of any tribe in the US.
I have recently completed my training and work as an amatuer genealogist and am now a professional. I can tell you with certainty that most people have been told the truth about their ancestrial lines it just takes getting all the DNA, along with all the documentation. The problem with Black and Native peoples is there are few documents before 1870, and even after slaves could not read for the most part and even seeing records often time names are misspelled because the record keeper just didn't care. Native people were enslaved and classified as Black. Eventually most had children with Blacks. Native slaves were referred to as Brass Ankles because they knew Turtle Island and could escape, they were chained by the ankle at night. Since it was illegal to be in certain states after 1838 most had to keep that they were Native a deep secret. Which unfortunately lives on today.
Percentages really don't matter what matters is that it is substantial that your ancestors survived for a time, and therefore you live today. It doesn't take away the fact that you are Black today. For most of us in a hundred years our posterity will look like some mixture of Asian given that they are the dominant group on the earth right now. They won't be Black or White any more. Just dark or light Asians.
The percentage of blood does not matter. Most Americans that are considered Native American or what are registered tribal members are only 1/32 - 1/16 Native American, but they look Whiter than ones mixed with African blood. Most tribes are not fond of their Black members. They feel that Blacks have already fought for their rights, and they are yet to get theirs. Examples of this is that some reservations in upstate NY didn't get running water and electricity until 1999. The State of South Carolina did not officially recognize their Native American population until 2005. SC said previous stated before 2005 that all of their Native population was sent West on the Trail of Tears. Its complicated.
I am not Native American. There is no DNA from Native Americans that registered in me, and there's no official records of any Native American ancestry. So both the scientific and the historical evidence say no . Why would I so desperately go around trying to dig up something that I know isn't there? I'm 80% from a variety of modern ethnic African regions(Benin/Togo, Nigeria, Mali, African Southeastern Bantu, Cameroon). So if anything, I'm mostly of African descent. The non African in me is mostly European, along with a tiny bit of Indian/Pakistani. Could there be some very distant Native American ancestor that didn't show up in the test (and that somehow eluded the census records)? There could be, but who would really care?
Cousins of mine have already taken the test (on both sides of my family) and no Native American shows. So Native American just isn't a part of our heritage. There where people who didn't want to admit that some of our family ancestors where the children of slave owners and their concubines. So they tried to explain away "fair skin" as the person being "Native" when it meant the person has a lot of white in them. Family lore can be WRONG, and there are other African Americans who had this fake family lore. Lena Horne thought she had a lot of Native American in her, but her dna tests showed her as an African/European mix. A number of Blacks have been surprised by this. It goes against grandmother's stories and its jarring. And I suspect there's another important reason for people to invent Native ancestry. Black has always been a nearly pejorative word, and there are many desperate to escape association from this label, as this thread can clearly demonstrate.
Canada is more generous but Canada doesn't aid their illegals at all. It is much harder to immigrate into Canada legally because of their health care system, they are over burdened already, so they only want contributing people to come in. People on any kind of subsidy in Canada are there legally already. They won't let you put your children on their system either if you are not their legally. Big difference from the US.
Russian/Haisidic Jews are a low population group in the US, the most are probably in this city, and that is still not a high population. Refugees have special considerations and provisions are made for them as you probably know. Black people West Indian and American should start their own organizations and make sure their people are taken care of just like Russian/Haisidic Jews. They have everything in place from Social Services to actual business help tailored to them from the State for their businesses. Many of them are highly educated and they DO get into the work force. Some of the women are house wives because they have large families. Many of the women do enter the work force when the children become of age. Many are getting Social Services because of the large families even when the husband works. Many have turned over trust funds to the State to contribute to the amount of Social Services that they are getting. Some money in trust has to stay there to contribute to the childrens education and higher education because most go to Hebrew schools.
I'd day in metro NYC the population of Eastern European Jews is pretty high. And yes, they do have their own civic and social services organizations. I do think the organizations both civic and religious play a huge part in their economic and political success in metro NYC.
I am sure the Native Americans are relieved...I know I would be to know you have nothing to do with me. None of this has anything to do with the topic...I suppose the only ones posting over the last few days are those with no families/nobody who cares about them.
I am sure the Native Americans are relieved...I know I would be to know you have nothing to do with me. None of this has anything to do with the topic...I suppose the only ones posting over the last few days are those with no families/nobody who cares about them.
Mods can you bring this thread back in line?
So do you count yourself as someone who nobody cares about, since you're posting the day after Christmas?
With that said, this thread has off topic, and I apologize for my role in this. I will second your call to bring this thread back in line. The alleged performance of English Caribbean people never should have been brought into this thread as it was about whether Puerto Ricans as Blacks get a long or not (though issues of shared ancestry and African heritage are fair game).
I know right 11Kap...I guess some people just never take a hint. Oh well...hopefully when the moderators return, they can clean up the mess this thread has become.
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