Land Lord Control's heat and hot water through computer?

[mathjak107]

not true at all about older buildings we have been retrofiting older buildings with vfd's and transducers all over now. not only were utility companies giving nice rebates but there is a huge energy saving.

both hot water and heating systems are being converted to vfd operation and the payback is not that long.

throw in a simple bms system today to go with those vfd's and aside from the rebates you can save 25% or more in energy costs.

if you look at a typical building everyone takes showers early in the morning. then it dies down until evening.

older systems have to have those pumps almost always pumping 24/7.....

throw some pressure transducers and a drive on them and you can slow those pumps down big time.

in a variable torque application like fans and pumps the energy saving is cubed as the horsepower requirements fall.

a pump at 1/2 speed has a 4x energy savings.

the heat in our building is so unbalanced that most of us have the windows wide open all winter.

they are looking into doing a vfd conversion and bms system as i type.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by mathjak107

not true at all about older buildings we have been retrofiting older buildings with vfd's and transducers all over now. not only were utility companies giving nice rebates but there is a huge energy saving.

both hot water and heating systems are being converted to vfd operation and the payback is not that long.

throw in a simple bms system today to go with those vfd's and aside from the rebates you can save 25% or more in energy costs.

if you look at a typical building everyone takes showers early in the morning. then it dies down until evening.

older systems have to have those pumps almost always pumping 24/7.....

throw some pressure transducers and a drive on them and you can slow those pumps down big time.

in a variable torque application like fans and pumps the energy saving is cubed as the horsepower requirements fall.

a pump at 1/2 speed has a 4x energy savings.

the heat in our building is so unbalanced that most of us have the windows wide open all winter.

they are looking into doing a vfd conversion and bms system as i type.

There are "older buildings' and there are older buildings.

Market rate or mostly so high rise or even six or seven story buildings can and often will invest money in such schemes as you mentioned. Your average most RS building is often barely lucky to have heat and hot water at any decent level. Given the talk around the office and elsewhere these days it seems many in those buildings are getting heat but "just". You want to be warmer? Get some heavy indoor clothing or purchase a space heater.

As for your "typical" building where everyone takes showers in the AM then demand dies down until later, take exception to that statement as well.

Demographics of a typical multi-family building today vary greatly. Your comment sounds like a major portion or all residents work outside the home and the building is largely empty during the day. Not always so; leaving aside the growing numbers of retired/seniors there are ever increasing numbers of SAHM and even SAHF that do housework and child care during the day. Dishes must be washed, laundry etc...

[mathjak107]

We do demand studies at the buildings we convert and most if not all follow identical patterns of demand.

Many couples both work and shower times are shower times. You have some exceptions but for the most part daily life is consistant.

The biggest demand for hot water is showers in the early part of the day and dishes in the evening. There is little demand usually miday for hot water.

Demographics does not alter peoples shower routines for the most part and our measured studies of usage confirm that. We are in 4400 buildings as of now with many more coming up.

The buildings span all kinds from rent stabilized to luxury.

Unless a landlord is a slum lord they are very concerned about cutting energy costs while providing the services they have to.

The maintaince on bladder systems is a big expense,constant pressure systems cost alot to run so it is easy to see the savings of having variable speed pumps.

[BugsyPal]

So what you are saying is those who need hot water during "demand times" are fine, the rest are just out of luck?

[mathjak107]

Noooooooo. The pumps are just slowing down or speeding up with demand. They do not just turn off or run full speed like they typically used to in older systems which were all or nothing.

The pumps speed always matches demand. Its a beautiful thing.

No point running pump motors full speed all day when in non peak hours 1/4 speed is even over capacity.