the truth about Bushwick Gentrification (New York, Paris: real estate, foreclosures, transplants)

[UpsonDowns]

Originally Posted by bx718

Well you said it - there are only a few CHINESE.... the point is they are CHINESE and have HELPED preserve china town. You mean to tell me in the almost 100 years in harlem NO blacks were able to put heads together to carry out constructive buying/building/property ownership?

the people there care more about BUYING expensive clothing and cars more than OWNING the establishments that sell the very things the people desire most. That is not the fault of anyone else but the blacks themselves so no blame shipping..... It's even worse today.....

and it is not too complicated to type in a short post or two - Greed, selfishness and unnecessary competition, play huge roles in this regard. Blacks will buy (without a problem) from everyone but themselves. Usually get treated like "crap" but have no problem with that neither.

I am yet to see a "white man" yelling on the corner, telling people to do everything but the very things to make you succeed

Are you a troll? You can't seriously believe that there aren't black people who own homes and businesses in Harlem.

[vitalove]

There are many black people who own homes and businesses in Harlem. Many. There are those who purchased brownstones for $1 and those who purchased coops and brownstones for upwards of $50k.

Let's not forget that until very recently there were few coop buildings in Harlem. Those that existed often had wait lists where you weren't called for 10 or more years. (I actually have a relative who got in this way after waiting 10+ years). And the banks wouldn't loan you any money or very little to restore a brownstone until maybe 8 years ago. I have friends whose parents and grandparents had to renovate their former SROs or wrecks with personal savings and it took them over a decade to do what some people are doing in less than 2 years courtesy of a home equity or improvement loan.

There are also many who have sold said properties or passed them down to relatives. Many of those who sold, did when the properties were under $1 mil. Now the people who moved in only 2-3 years ago are reselling for upwards of $2-$5 mill.

So let's not forget those things.

And I'm sure in parts of BK and Queens, the story is very similar.

[nobodyspecial08]

Whatever the reasons for "yups" and "hips" moving into long established brooklyn neighborhoods are, the fact remains that the neighborhood loses all culture and pushes out the poor working class and that is a problem.
Sure, we should blame those who raise the rent and allow the area to become a carbon copy of some bland and typical "white" neighborhood but we can not overlook the fact that the people who are moving in are indirectly spurring on this change by willing to pay the higher rents.
Maybe they can't afford manhattan so brooklyn is obviously the next best bet.
That's exactly what happened after 9/11. Manhattanites couldn't afford to stay in the city any longer or were too scared of being so close to another possible attack, so they moved to brooklyn heights and then they started spreading...
Now my old neighborhood of Park Slope is unrecognizable. And it's sad.
Sad because the culture is gone. The good, ethnic, traditional, working class, family oriented people are gone because they work pay check to paycheck and if they had a tough time paying 600 a month for a 2 br before, paying 1300 a month is out of the question.
I personally really dislike the change, not the racial desegregation, but the economic toll it's taking on the people who made these neighborhoods so culturally attractive in the first place.

By the by, "reverse racism" is not an actual or accurate term, it's like saying "conversate" as opposed to converse. Racism is racism. Whether it's white against black or black against white or any other race for that matter.

[Henna]

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial08

Whatever the reasons for "yups" and "hips" moving into long established brooklyn neighborhoods are, the fact remains that the neighborhood loses all culture and pushes out the poor working class and that is a problem.
Sure, we should blame those who raise the rent and allow the area to become a carbon copy of some bland and typical "white" neighborhood but we can not overlook the fact that the people who are moving in are indirectly spurring on this change by willing to pay the higher rents.
Maybe they can't afford manhattan so brooklyn is obviously the next best bet.
That's exactly what happened after 9/11. Manhattanites couldn't afford to stay in the city any longer or were too scared of being so close to another possible attack, so they moved to brooklyn heights and then they started spreading...
Now my old neighborhood of Park Slope is unrecognizable. And it's sad.
Sad because the culture is gone. The good, ethnic, traditional, working class, family oriented people are gone because they work pay check to paycheck and if they had a tough time paying 600 a month for a 2 br before, paying 1300 a month is out of the question.
I personally really dislike the change, not the racial desegregation, but the economic toll it's taking on the people who made these neighborhoods so culturally attractive in the first place.

By the by, "reverse racism" is not an actual or accurate term, it's like saying "conversate" as opposed to converse. Racism is racism. Whether it's white against black or black against white or any other race for that matter.

I'm upset with all those people who are willing to pay the high prices at Whole Foods!! If they weren't willing to pay those high prices, then the prices would have to go down and then I could afford to shop there!

[bx718]

obviously whatever ownership exists in harlem wasn't/isn't stopping the gentrification. I wonder why china town isn't gentrified or gentrifying......

Also, a section of the original post was "lifted" from a site. Someone sent me a site yesterday and while i was reading/browsing, I saw a familiar paragraph from this board. Just check the second paragraph..........

#73 Gentrification « Stuff White People Like

[DAS]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAS
As for Chinatown there are only a few wealthy Chinese that own mostly everything down there. So its not about sticking together so much as, there are just a few on top and they control everything. Everybody else rents from them or works for them for the most part.

Originally posted by bx718
Well you said it - there are only a few CHINESE.... the point is they are CHINESE and have HELPED preserve china town. You mean to tell me in the almost 100 years in harlem NO blacks were able to put heads together to carry out constructive buying/building/property ownership?

the people there care more about BUYING expensive clothing and cars more than OWNING the establishments that sell the very things the people desire most. That is not the fault of anyone else but the blacks themselves so no blame shipping..... It's even worse today.....

and it is not too complicated to type in a short post or two - Greed, selfishness and unnecessary competition, play huge roles in this regard. Blacks will buy (without a problem) from everyone but themselves. Usually get treated like "crap" but have no problem with that neither.

I am yet to see a "white man" yelling on the corner, telling people to do everything but the very things to make you succeed

The statement I'm making is in response to one that SeventhFloor made concerning $1 brownstones only. He used Chinatown as an example. I will be the last to place blame on anyone. It is too complicated for that. The point is most brownstones never sold for a dollar. The ones that did, were a wreck and were sold through the city. A purchaser had to prove that they had the funds available to renovate them in a certain period of time. There were black people that bought them, however I personally know a few that did and they were not original Harlem residents, they are also professional people.

Harlem especially during that time, and especially in the areas where the $1 brownstones were, were areas that were really poor and really bad. So the people there wouldn't have had the money to do this. Many with decent jobs tried but couldn't get the funds to qualify for this program. So they had to purchase homes in other parts of the city or outside of the city.

I am just trying to stick with the facts. The other arguments have been heard so many times we all know them, and we all have our own opinions.

One important point is that most property was never owned by black people and their were many thing put in place to prevent them from owning a lot of property there.

Even so there are and there have always been black homeowners, and business people in Harlem.

[nobodyspecial08]

Originally Posted by bx718

obviously whatever ownership exists in harlem wasn't/isn't stopping the gentrification. I wonder why china town isn't gentrified or gentrifying......

Also, a section of the original post was "lifted" from a site. Someone sent me a site yesterday and while i was reading/browsing, I saw a familiar paragraph from this board. Just check the second paragraph..........

#73 Gentrification « Stuff White People Like

GReat catch!!!

[DITC]

Originally Posted by nobodyspecial08

Whatever the reasons for "yups" and "hips" moving into long established brooklyn neighborhoods are, the fact remains that the neighborhood loses all culture and pushes out the poor working class and that is a problem.
Sure, we should blame those who raise the rent and allow the area to become a carbon copy of some bland and typical "white" neighborhood but we can not overlook the fact that the people who are moving in are indirectly spurring on this change by willing to pay the higher rents.
Maybe they can't afford manhattan so brooklyn is obviously the next best bet.
That's exactly what happened after 9/11. Manhattanites couldn't afford to stay in the city any longer or were too scared of being so close to another possible attack, so they moved to brooklyn heights and then they started spreading...
Now my old neighborhood of Park Slope is unrecognizable. And it's sad.
Sad because the culture is gone. The good, ethnic, traditional, working class, family oriented people are gone because they work pay check to paycheck and if they had a tough time paying 600 a month for a 2 br before, paying 1300 a month is out of the question.
I personally really dislike the change, not the racial desegregation, but the economic toll it's taking on the people who made these neighborhoods so culturally attractive in the first place.

By the by, "reverse racism" is not an actual or accurate term, it's like saying "conversate" as opposed to converse. Racism is racism. Whether it's white against black or black against white or any other race for that matter.

I am 100% with you. Yuppie and hipster cultures are disposable to any US city, from Boston to Philly to Chicago for the yups to SF and Portland for the hipsters. However, everybody is wide eyed at NY when they grow up watching Carson Daly show the glitz and glamor of OOOOHHH AHHHH *Times Square*!! So what makes NY different than Boston (same age) or LA (West coast entertainment capital) or Chicago (same skyline, ethnic groups) that makes people pull the "NY or bust" attitude? Why are so many hit movies made about New York as opposed to other movies?

....Its the NEW YORKER. People are fascinated with this unique character, usually stereotyped by the wild Italian guy from the Bronx or the loud mouthed Jewish guy from Brooklyn. Throw in the Bronx Puerto Rican, the Jamaican guy from Flatbush, and so on. Odds are the guy selling fake watches in times square and makes you laugh while doing so, or that wild waiter/waitress with a crazy accent is not from Manhattan.

But just because these people are "characters" with unique accents and mannerisms doesnt mean they are zoo animals that should be made fun of from a Manhattan high rise. These people are generational NYers whose working class (and even sometimes white collar) jobs are the fabric of the city. These people often have great family values. They contribute to communities where you can eat diverse foods, and young kids play outside while the elderly are still close by. Lastly, these people inspire movies like the Godfather or even Juice (haha) which inspire outsiders' fascination with NY over other cities.

Some may argue, oh you can go move to another city such as Philly or Chicago. Well Im afraid the culture is too different, even though there are often the same ethnicities. Talk to an Italian guy in Philly or Chicago and then talk to the NYer...bigger difference than youd think. Its because the combination of New York and the respective ethnicity provides a unique experience.

Some people who have their own causes to gentrify whole neighborhoods think oh this is great if all 20-30 somethings help lower crime. As these areas spread out, we eventually may have places like Crown Heights becoming completely bland East Ohio (bland can be any race, this is not a race issue its a character/values issue), who knows. But if this is the case, Manhattan and the whole inner ring around it (Western Queens, Most of BK, Jersey city even) will become the same exact thing. Nobody can convince me that Manhattan style living is "diverse" because you have Whites, Asians, Indians, Blacks, etc, when meanwhile all these people combined form a high class yuppie group that collectively eat at Gallagher's or "Nobu" (haha) or spend New Years at Cipriani, etc. when they come to the outerboroughs, you see places like Brooklyn gettin the faux European sidewalk cafe and the "more cultured than thous" sitting on the sidewalk talking about their latest trip to Amsterdam. Oooohh ahhh pal guess what youre not special.

[nobodyspecial08]

Originally Posted by DITC

I am 100% with you. Yuppie and hipster cultures are disposable to any US city, from Boston to Philly to Chicago for the yups to SF and Portland for the hipsters. However, everybody is wide eyed at NY when they grow up watching Carson Daly show the glitz and glamor of OOOOHHH AHHHH *Times Square*!! So what makes NY different than Boston (same age) or LA (West coast entertainment capital) or Chicago (same skyline, ethnic groups) that makes people pull the "NY or bust" attitude? Why are so many hit movies made about New York as opposed to other movies?

....Its the NEW YORKER. People are fascinated with this unique character, usually stereotyped by the wild Italian guy from the Bronx or the loud mouthed Jewish guy from Brooklyn. Throw in the Bronx Puerto Rican, the Jamaican guy from Flatbush, and so on. Odds are the guy selling fake watches in times square and makes you laugh while doing so, or that wild waiter/waitress with a crazy accent is not from Manhattan.

But just because these people are "characters" with unique accents and mannerisms doesnt mean they are zoo animals that should be made fun of from a Manhattan high rise. These people are generational NYers whose working class (and even sometimes white collar) jobs are the fabric of the city. These people often have great family values. They contribute to communities where you can eat diverse foods, and young kids play outside while the elderly are still close by. Lastly, these people inspire movies like the Godfather or even Juice (haha) which inspire outsiders' fascination with NY over other cities.

Some may argue, oh you can go move to another city such as Philly or Chicago. Well Im afraid the culture is too different, even though there are often the same ethnicities. Talk to an Italian guy in Philly or Chicago and then talk to the NYer...bigger difference than youd think. Its because the combination of New York and the respective ethnicity provides a unique experience.

Some people who have their own causes to gentrify whole neighborhoods think oh this is great if all 20-30 somethings help lower crime. As these areas spread out, we eventually may have places like Crown Heights becoming completely bland East Ohio (bland can be any race, this is not a race issue its a character/values issue), who knows. But if this is the case, Manhattan and the whole inner ring around it (Western Queens, Most of BK, Jersey city even) will become the same exact thing. Nobody can convince me that Manhattan style living is "diverse" because you have Whites, Asians, Indians, Blacks, etc, when meanwhile all these people combined form a high class yuppie group that collectively eat at Gallagher's or "Nobu" (haha) or spend New Years at Cipriani, etc. when they come to the outerboroughs, you see places like Brooklyn gettin the faux European sidewalk cafe and the "more cultured than thous" sitting on the sidewalk talking about their latest trip to Amsterdam. Oooohh ahhh pal guess what youre not special.

I couldn't agree with you more on every point.
It all comes down to character and economics. The boroughs are getting richer but at the expense of it's character.

I miss the mom and pop hispanic rinky dink restaurants that served incredible food for 5-7$ a person, you could find these on virtually every corner (maybe I'm exaggerating) now on fifth ave. in brooklyn all you see are boutiques and Gourmet cafes along with "authentic" English eateries and they are filled with people from Iowa looking for some diversity, but meanwhile they all look the same.
I don't see these people patronizing the generational businesses, the few that are left.

[Paris FR]

Originally Posted by DITC

I am 100% with you. Yuppie and hipster cultures are disposable to any US city, from Boston to Philly to Chicago for the yups to SF and Portland for the hipsters. However, everybody is wide eyed at NY when they grow up watching Carson Daly show the glitz and glamor of OOOOHHH AHHHH *Times Square*!! So what makes NY different than Boston (same age) or LA (West coast entertainment capital) or Chicago (same skyline, ethnic groups) that makes people pull the "NY or bust" attitude? Why are so many hit movies made about New York as opposed to other movies?

....Its the NEW YORKER. People are fascinated with this unique character, usually stereotyped by the wild Italian guy from the Bronx or the loud mouthed Jewish guy from Brooklyn. Throw in the Bronx Puerto Rican, the Jamaican guy from Flatbush, and so on. Odds are the guy selling fake watches in times square and makes you laugh while doing so, or that wild waiter/waitress with a crazy accent is not from Manhattan.

But just because these people are "characters" with unique accents and mannerisms doesnt mean they are zoo animals that should be made fun of from a Manhattan high rise. These people are generational NYers whose working class (and even sometimes white collar) jobs are the fabric of the city. These people often have great family values. They contribute to communities where you can eat diverse foods, and young kids play outside while the elderly are still close by. Lastly, these people inspire movies like the Godfather or even Juice (haha) which inspire outsiders' fascination with NY over other cities.

Some may argue, oh you can go move to another city such as Philly or Chicago. Well Im afraid the culture is too different, even though there are often the same ethnicities. Talk to an Italian guy in Philly or Chicago and then talk to the NYer...bigger difference than youd think. Its because the combination of New York and the respective ethnicity provides a unique experience.

Some people who have their own causes to gentrify whole neighborhoods think oh this is great if all 20-30 somethings help lower crime. As these areas spread out, we eventually may have places like Crown Heights becoming completely bland East Ohio (bland can be any race, this is not a race issue its a character/values issue), who knows. But if this is the case, Manhattan and the whole inner ring around it (Western Queens, Most of BK, Jersey city even) will become the same exact thing. Nobody can convince me that Manhattan style living is "diverse" because you have Whites, Asians, Indians, Blacks, etc, when meanwhile all these people combined form a high class yuppie group that collectively eat at Gallagher's or "Nobu" (haha) or spend New Years at Cipriani, etc. when they come to the outerboroughs, you see places like Brooklyn gettin the faux European sidewalk cafe and the "more cultured than thous" sitting on the sidewalk talking about their latest trip to Amsterdam. Oooohh ahhh pal guess what youre not special.

New York is the only 'it' place to live in the United States; it's just sooo fabulous!

The new New Yorker is cultured, rich, sophisticated and glam (or they pretend to be, and try to find their inner-sophistication/cultured persona in NY) and are coming in droves. There is nothing anybody can do to stop it.