AOC Calls on Cuomo to Pass Wealth Tax on Billionaires (New York: low income, affordable apartment)
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@jonbenson (or anybody else who intends to bring up forms of discrimination that were outlawed more than half a century ago): Please look at the calendar, we are in the year 2020, not in the 1930s. Practically nobody who wanted to apply for a mortgage in the 1930s is even alive any more. Yes, I am familiar with redlining, which was prohibited as of 1968, which was 52 years ago. Half a century is plenty of time for anyone to obtain a mortgage, and move wherever they want and can afford to live. For a while, practically anyone who earned anything at all could get a mortgage. Issuing mortgages to millions of people who couldn't pay them back was in fact one of the reasons that crashed the economy in 2008-9. There is no financial institution that would deny a mortgage, or a property seller that would not sell, to a non-white person that financially and otherwise qualifies for the mortgage or the sale&purchase transaction in the year 2020. Nobody, absolutely NOBODY is forcing non-white people to live in any particular area, or preventing them from living in any particular area of NYC in the year 2020 (or in the last several decades). Any non-white person that wants to live in any specific part of the city can live there if they can afford it - same as any white person. If you don't have sufficient earnings to buy an expensive property, nobody will give you a mortgage for it whether you are black, white or purple. And if you have to live in an inexpensive property because you can't afford better, nobody is still forcing you to engage in crime, drugs, million pregnancies without child support, and similar elements of ghetto lifestyle. If you are poor, you simply need to pursue legitimate ways of getting out of poverty, and in 2020 nobody will prevent you from pursuing them, no matter what race you are.
New York is one of the most segregated cities in the country. This University of Michigan analysis of 2010 Census data, for example, suggests that New York is the second-most-segregated metropolitan area in the U.S., exceeded only by Milwaukee, and that about 78% of white and black people would have to move in order to achieve perfect integration. (Chicago’s corresponding number is just over 76%, good enough for third place.)
Why is this so surprising? One obvious reason, I think, is that most people’s conception of New York is limited to about 1/2 of Manhattan and maybe 1/6 of Brooklyn, areas that are among the largest job and tourist centers in the world. As a result, they attract people of all different ethnic backgrounds, especially during the day, even if the people who actually live in those areas tend to be monochromatic. Imagine, in other words, trying to judge racial segregation in Chicago by walking around the Loop and adjacent areas: you would probably conclude that you were in a pretty integrated city.
But it goes beyond that, I think. Segregation in New York doesn’t look like segregation in Chicago, or a lot of smaller Rust Belt cities. For one, there just aren’t very many monolithically black neighborhoods left in New York. Here, for example, I’ve highlighted every neighborhood that’s at least 90% African American (see note on method at the bottom of this piece)
Were we to do this in Chicago, half the South and West Sides would be lit up. But in New York, black neighborhoods have become significantly mixed, in particular with people of Hispanic descent. This is a phenomenon Chicagoans are used to in formerly all-white communities – places like Jefferson Park or Bridgeport, which as recently as 1980 were overwhelmingly white, now have very large Latino and Asian populations – but in New York, it’s happened in both white and black neighborhoods.
That said, white folks in New York have still on the whole declined to move to black areas, except for some nibbling along the edges in Harlem and central Brooklyn. That means that instead of measuring segregation the way we might in Chicago – by looking for very high concentrations of a single ethnic group – it makes more sense to look for the absence of either white or black people.
where white people make up less than 10% of the population:
The same Census analysis that found NYC was the second-most-segregated metro area in terms of white and black people found that it was the third-most-segregated metro area in terms of white and Latino people.
Not to go too much off topic as there are several interesting arguments in this thread but I have to say something about this map "where white people make up less than 10% of the population:"
It is terrible. It includes parks, cemeteries, airports, a Con Edison electrical plant as areas that have less than 10% white population - well durr, no one lives in Central Park lol. But to make it worse, it only includes some of the parks and cemeteries so whoever made the map was pretty sloppy about it.
I don't get it. At first I am thinking they are including Van Cortland Park, Woodlawn Cemetery, Laguardia Airport, JFK Airport, Marine Park, Prospect Park, Great Kills, etc. just to make the city to look more segregated then it really is. But then they left out so many other parks that I think whoever made this map was just doing it just so randomly.
None of this is legal segregation. In 2020, people are legally free to live wherever they want and can afford. Racial integration is ratified by laws and regulations of the US. If a non-white kid, including a kid from ghetto, wants to pursue education, get an occupation, get reimbursed in that occupation, and buy a property which is not in ghetto, or which is in an area where the majority of residents are white, nobody will prevent him or her from doing that. If the kid demonstrates interest and effort in participation in the common, integrated economy, every teacher will help him/her all along the way to their goal. This segregation you are showing is the result of how and where people freely decide to live, it is not a segregation imposed by the US laws.
Illegal, yes, yet still practice implicitly.
A few examples??? let's go !!
A friend of my wife, was engaged to an Asian man, he applied to rent an apartment in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn... and he got the lease.... then the landlord found out the fiancee was a black woman.... the words that came out of the landlord's mouth " I wish I would've known your fiancee was black, I would've never rented my apartment to you" (an unsaid rule basically).
Second example, a black correction officer I know, lived with his Russian wife in Sheepshead Bay, only two black persons lived in the building, the other one (Jamaican man) ended up moving out. On a regular basis, his wife was being called out by Russian people about how disgraceful she was to have married a man like that and giving birth to biracial children.
Another example, a friend of mine, rented an apartment in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, then had a friend who needed a place move in with him temporarily, because he lived too far from his school. The landlord (Jewish guy) found out, ran into my friend and said " what the hell am I looking like now??? what the hell is this beautiful building going to look like now??... my friend, befuddled, asked him what he was talking about... "You have a black person living with you !!! I don't want any black people in my building !!!!".
Last but not least, a real estate deal about to be sealed, an apartment about to be bought all cash in Morris Park, in The Bronx, in a building. Then in a casual conversation, the subject of the black spouse of the prospective buyer was brought up.... The sellers (Older Italian-American couple) looked extremely disturbed... The next day, stormed into the Realtor's office, without warning "I'm pulling off !!! There's no way I'm selling to these people !!!"... Sold the property to other a few months later...
Now, let's go to a more extreme place... Do you really think they would let you move in as a black person in Howard Beach??? Do you really think they would let you buy one of these old houses in Middle Village???
Those are only a few examples from people I know/have known, now put this on a broader scale...
And again, I'm not even a liberal or whatever label the fool like to put on people, I'm just very realistic about what's happening.
A friend of my wife, was engaged to an Asian man, he applied to rent an apartment in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn... and he got the lease.... then the landlord found out the fiancee was a black woman.... the words that came out of the landlord's mouth " I wish I would've known your fiancee was black, I would've never rented my apartment to you" (an unsaid rule basically).
Second example, a black correction officer I know, lived with his Russian wife in Sheepshead Bay, only two black persons lived in the building, the other one (Jamaican man) ended up moving out. On a regular basis, his wife was being called out by Russian people about how disgraceful she was to have married a man like that and giving birth to biracial children.
Another example, a friend of mine, rented an apartment in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, then had a friend who needed a place move in with him temporarily, because he lived too far from his school. The landlord (Jewish guy) found out, ran into my friend and said " what the hell am I looking like now??? what the hell is this beautiful building going to look like now??... my friend, befuddled, asked him what he was talking about... "You have a black person living with you !!! I don't want any black people in my building !!!!".
Last but not least, a real estate deal about to be sealed, an apartment about to be bought all cash in Morris Park, in The Bronx, in a building. Then in a casual conversation, the subject of the black spouse of the prospective buyer was brought up.... The sellers (Older Italian-American couple) looked extremely disturbed... The next day, stormed into the Realtor's office, without warning "I'm pulling off !!! There's no way I'm selling to these people !!!"... Sold the property to other a few months later...
Now, let's go to a more extreme place... Do you really think they would let you move in as a black person in Howard Beach??? Do you really think they would let you buy one of these old houses in Middle Village???
Those are only a few examples from people I know/have known, now put this on a broader scale...
And again, I'm not even a liberal or whatever label the fool like to put on people, I'm just very realistic about what's happening.
You will find examples of racism among random people here and there, sure. But none of what you mention is legal, or something that happens as a general rule. The US laws do not allow racism, so it would be totally disingenuous to say that racism is still "systemic". Sorry, but the "system" is not racist, has not been in a very long time. Notice that in 3 out of your 4 cases, people DO actually live where they want to live, and nothing threatening has happened to them except obnoxious gossip by not terribly intelligent socially marginal folks (the type of people that would use anything convenient, against a person of any race, for petty resentment). In the last case, if the prospective buyer really wanted badly to buy the property, they could have taken the matter to the court, and could have won the case without any difficulty.
Regarding "do you really think they would let you move as a black person to X", I am actually a white person who owns a small studio in Parkchester, the Bronx, where according to the most recent data 97% of residents are not white (and walking through Parkchester gives an impression that it is more like 100%)... and I have heard on this forum that I shouldn't be there, that I am "not wanted" by that kind of community, that any white person in that kind of community can only be a "gentrifier" who is "displacing" the only people who have "the right" to be there. Mind you, such attitudes go both ways... and both ways are against the US laws.
Anyhow, the subject of racial predominance in particular neighborhoods is not actually the subject of this thread :-). The subject is taking money from "rich people" of NYC who have earned it, and giving that money to the "poor people" of NYC who do not work, rather frequently do not work for generations. I am not in favor of stealing money from any people in order to give it to the "poor", but am in favor of giving jobs to the poor, and requiring the same socially responsible behavior from a poor person as from any other person. A different poster dragged the discussion into basically equalizing the NYC poor with NYC non-whites, and I guess arguing that all the NYC poor who are non-white have an eternal right to do nothing, to live off of the the taxpayers' support, to act as antisocially as they like - all because there was a "history" of cruelty and unfairness towards non-white people... between 300 and 50 years ago! Sorry, but this "history" is a completely fake argument to justify what is going on NOW. Most people, of any race, could claim some form of historic cruelty and unfairness against their group (most obviously if they are Jewish - they unquestionably had it worst, no other ethnic/racial group anywhere had been herded into a gas chamber, and a few thousand of them exterminated in 15 minutes!), yet they do not use any "history" as an excuse for extorting taxpayer money, or as an excuse for persistently widespread criminal behavior in their communities.
You will find examples of racism among random people here and there, sure. But none of what you mention is legal, or something that happens as a general rule. The US laws do not allow racism, so it would be totally disingenuous to say that racism is still "systemic". Sorry, but the "system" is not racist, has not been in a very long time. Notice that in 3 out of your 4 cases, people DO actually live where they want to live, and nothing threatening has happened to them except obnoxious gossip by not terribly intelligent socially marginal folks (the type of people that would use anything convenient, against a person of any race, for petty resentment). In the last case, if the prospective buyer really wanted badly to buy the property, they could have taken the matter to the court, and could have won the case without any difficult.
Regarding "do you really think they would let you move as a black person to X", I am actually a white person who owns a small studio in Parkchester, the Bronx, where according to the most recent data 97% of residents are not white (and walking through Parkchester gives an impression that it is more like 100%)... and I have heard on this forum that I shouldn't be there, that I am "not wanted" by that kind of community, that any white person in that kind of community can only be a "gentrifier" who is "displacing" the only people who have "the right" to be there. Mind you, such attitudes go both ways... and both ways are against the US laws.
Anyhow, the subject of racial predominance in particular neighborhoods is not actually the subject of this thread :-). The subject is taking money from "rich people" of NYC who have earned it, and giving that money to the "poor people" of NYC who do not work, rather frequently do not work for generations. I am not in favor of stealing money from any people in order to give it to the "poor", but am in favor of giving jobs to the poor, and requiring the same socially responsible behavior from a poor person as from any other person. A different poster dragged the discussion into basically equalizing the NYC poor with NYC non-whites, and I guess arguing that all the NYC poor who are non-white have an eternal right to do nothing, to live off of the the taxpayers' support, to act as antisocially as they like - all because there was a "history" of cruelty and unfairness towards non-white people... between 300 and 50 years ago! Sorry, but this "history" is a completely fake argument to justify what is going on NOW. Most people, of any race, could claim some form of historic cruelty and unfairness against their group (most obviously if they are Jewish - they unquestionably had it worst, no other ethnic/racial group anywhere had been herded into a gas chamber, and a few thousand of them exterminated in 15 minutes!), yet they do not use any "history" as an excuse for extorting taxpayer money, or as an excuse for persistently widespread criminal behavior in their communities.
Once again, if you take the time to read the reason why I mentioned these few examples (that are only from me and not even in a global scale) you would understand that I said “it is NOT LEGAL, but YET PRACTICED”. There’s always people like you who wanna be “ok but, but but but but....” there’s not but there are facts.
What’s so hard to understand? My examples speak for themselves and they may be random but they’re typical.’ What’s more factual than that? Come on !!!
Again, I dare you average black family to try and buy a house in Howard Beach. Some banks won’t even give you the loan knowing where they’re trying to buy.
Once again, if you take the time to read the reason why I mentioned these few examples (that are only from me and not even in a global scale) you would understand that I said “it is NOT LEGAL, but YET PRACTICED”. There’s always people like you who wanna be “ok but, but but but but....” there’s not but there are facts.
What’s so hard to understand? My examples speak for themselves and they may be random but they’re typical.’ What’s more factual than that? Come on !!!
Again, I dare you average black family to try and buy a house in Howard Beach. Some banks won’t even give you the loan knowing where they’re trying to buy.
There are laws against "what is not legal, yet is practiced". These laws are being applied. What else do you propose, how else would you handle this problem?
In the context of this thread, how does taking money from taxpayers, and giving it to someone else, who has no concept of supporting self&family by their own efforts, address the problem of still informally (and illegally) practiced racism? How does taking money from taxpayers and giving it to "the poor" (who locally in NYC are predominantly non-white) reduce racism? How is asking every person for equal personal accountability racist?
A friend of my wife, was engaged to an Asian man, he applied to rent an apartment in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn... and he got the lease.... then the landlord found out the fiancee was a black woman.... the words that came out of the landlord's mouth " I wish I would've known your fiancee was black, I would've never rented my apartment to you" (an unsaid rule basically).
Second example, a black correction officer I know, lived with his Russian wife in Sheepshead Bay, only two black persons lived in the building, the other one (Jamaican man) ended up moving out. On a regular basis, his wife was being called out by Russian people about how disgraceful she was to have married a man like that and giving birth to biracial children.
Another example, a friend of mine, rented an apartment in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, then had a friend who needed a place move in with him temporarily, because he lived too far from his school. The landlord (Jewish guy) found out, ran into my friend and said " what the hell am I looking like now??? what the hell is this beautiful building going to look like now??... my friend, befuddled, asked him what he was talking about... "You have a black person living with you !!! I don't want any black people in my building !!!!".
Last but not least, a real estate deal about to be sealed, an apartment about to be bought all cash in Morris Park, in The Bronx, in a building. Then in a casual conversation, the subject of the black spouse of the prospective buyer was brought up.... The sellers (Older Italian-American couple) looked extremely disturbed... The next day, stormed into the Realtor's office, without warning "I'm pulling off !!! There's no way I'm selling to these people !!!"... Sold the property to other a few months later...
Now, let's go to a more extreme place... Do you really think they would let you move in as a black person in Howard Beach??? Do you really think they would let you buy one of these old houses in Middle Village???
Those are only a few examples from people I know/have known, now put this on a broader scale...
And again, I'm not even a liberal or whatever label the fool like to put on people, I'm just very realistic about what's happening.
I'll get flamed for this, but here goes:
You can't reason with many of the old white ethnic neighborhoods. They don't want to live next to certain "others" and any attempts at trying to integrate them will simply result in the neighborhood tipping into being all Black/Hispanic/whatever. The true hope for genuine racial intergration in NYC comes from gentrification. Yuppies are willing to live in diverse neighborhoods and that's what the city should focus on.
The true hope for genuine racial intergration in NYC comes from gentrification. Yuppies are willing to live in diverse neighborhoods and that's what the city should focus on.
That is only one direction
the other direction is to have buildings in white neighborhoods with 20% affordable units
in 3 out of your 4 cases, people DO actually live where they want to live....
I am actually a white person who owns a small studio in Parkchester, the Bronx, where according to the most recent data 97% of residents are not white (and walking through Parkchester gives an impression that it is more like 100%)
You can't reason with many of the old white ethnic neighborhoods. They don't want to live next to certain "others" and any attempts at trying to integrate them will simply result in the neighborhood tipping into being all Black/Hispanic/whatever. The true hope for genuine racial intergration in NYC comes from gentrification. Yuppies are willing to live in diverse neighborhoods and that's what the city should focus on.
There is truth in what you say. Young liberal suburban a chose to live with different ethnic groups, because they need a change and discoveries. The only issue that comes with it is how outrageously high real estate prices and rents get. Look at Williamsburg and Fort Greene.
But in the case of gentrification, you have mostly white people (but not only) moving to mostly black or other minorities’ neighborhoods and in itself, sorry to contradict some but a black neighborhood initially never opposes white people moving in, it is usually quite the opposite (until the $800/month one-bedroom apartment rents for $2500).
Also, younger whites from some European countries (especially the racially diverse countries or used to a certain diversity) whether they gentrify or not have no issue living amongst others like they do at home (the French of diverse ethnic backgrounds were the first foreigners to move to Crown Heights ans Bed Stuy, way before it was hip then came Germans, British and Italians....) and in the Bronx, Albanians live with zero issues amongst blacks, Hispanics and South Asians. Mind you some establishments ran by Albanians even host “latin Friday’s” parties and “hip hop Sunday’s” and even the fresh off the boat ones have no issues having others hanging and drinking at their bars/cafes.
Also, it is quite funny to see Italian-Americans (who, through generations have lost almost all connection with Italy, and the only Italian words they know are Cannoli and Capisce) ne so intolerant, and at the same time proud of their heritage, when the new Italian immigrants kind of make fun of them. I will always remember these Italian kids I worked with, came to the US a few years ago, telling me how Italian Americans were absolutely. It representative of them, of Italy and Italian culture and so on. And having lived in a country neighboring Italy and having traveled very frequently to Italy it is true that they seem to be from two different planets. Nowadays Italians mix with Ethiopian and Western African immigrants, are well-traveled and able to question themselves. Most Italian cafes in Northern Italy are even ran by Chinese immigrants.
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