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Rachael I don't want to speak for the poster Sha83 but I think the reason that we are misunderstanding you is that you seem to lump the entire South Bronx in the same catagory. We are speaking about Morrisania not the West Bronx where you teach. You cannot compare the 2 areas. There is no comparison, and it is of no use to keep debating this. The area where you teach has been revived. It may have some social problems but the residents have the ability to come together and solve the problems.
I think that you have a mostly Dominican population there that has spilled over from Washington Heights and Inwood. Dominican people usually come to the US with education and skills, they have the ability to work and start businesses as soon, or not long after they come to the US. Some of them held high social positions in DR and had to start over here. So your area already has educated, mixed income people. Most of the homes still stand and are in very good shape, the apt buildings that may have been torched at one time have been rehabilitated.
Morrisania on the other hand was a mostly Jewish and Black neighborhood until about 1950. Colin Powell grew up there and many others. Some of my friends parents have class school pictures taken in the 1940's and you can see the mixture. Those people started moving out the area became mostly Black and Puerto Rican. It was still middle class though. Once those people started moving out most rented their homes and moved further up in the Bronx or Westchester. In the late 60's and throughout the 70's these home owners starting moving out as well then the fires started.
The projects were built in the late 1950's and early 1960's.
Your comparisons to the 2 areas are like apples and oranges. Even though they are both in the Southern Bronx.
I disagree with this. Dominicans in no way come from DR with education and skills. We aren't Jamaicans, Guyanese, Trinidadians that are west Indian blacks who usually come with money. Dominicans are not only the poorest ethnic group in the city, but they are the poorest ethnic group in the United States. Here are some statistics of income for University Heights in 2000.
These are incomes for University Heights divided by Puma (a number given that covers a certain area of UH)....the number after is the income, percent in poverty, and finally the demographics:
Areas from Burnside avenue to Fordham road
First in CD # 5
251 - $23,841 32% poverty ( 31% black 61% hispanic)
The rest in CD # 7
257 - $29,570 29% poverty ( 31% black 65% hispanic)
255 - $21,135 38% poverty ( 20% black 70% hispanic)
253 - $20,956 46% poverty ( 20% black 70% hispanic)
Areas from Fordham rd to Kingsbridge rd
269 - $31,832 28% poverty (25% black 65% hispanic)
261 - $55,438 4% poverty (60% black 21% hispanic)
265 - $21,306 45% poverty (15% black 66% hispanic)
For reference here are the approximate demographics of UH:
Black : 27%
Puerto Rican : 34%
Dominicans : 55%
So it's a predominantly Dominican neighborhood. Therefore we can assume that most of the hispanics there are in fact Dominicans.
So look at the numbers, the three poorest areas of UH have incomes of
$20,956 $21,135 and $ 21,306......Ironically these areas are also the most hispanic (Dominicans) areas.....at basically 70%.
The highest income at $55,438 is overwhelmingly black at 60%. The highest incomes after that $31,832 $29,570 are much more black than the poorest areas.
So basically without blacks in the area we would be a much poorer neighborhood. Dominicans usually come here and have to resort to Taxi driving, street vendors, barbershops, salons and of course selling drugs. None of this really strikes me as needing education and all of the above except for drugs earn almost nothing.
Another things is I've been to 167th on both the west side and east side of Jerome ....and I found the west side much worse. Especially around Anderson, Shakespeare, Nelson, Ogden, University etc...I felt fine on the other side. So Morrisania is not any worse than Highbridge.
SuperMario I am not saying that all Dominicans come with money. Neither do all of the people in the other groups that you have mentioned. But the fact remains that Dominicans are probably the most financially independent group. What I mean by that is that if you are Dominican and live in the West Bronx, Washington Heights, or Inwood you don't have to leave your neighborhood to purchase anything. You can virtually also purchase all of your services from other Dominicans. Just like the Chinese in Flushing.
You have your own lawyers, doctors, teachers, along with the business people that can sell you every conceivable good or servce that you would need. This may not make them wealthy but independence is a wealth in itself. Those businesses that you make light of like barber shops and hair salons are allowing people to take care of their families. This is the American dream. I know you are throwing in the drug selling for effect, but every single group in this country has that element. What's new?
In fact some Dominicans are coming to the US and moving to other states and bypassing the traditional settling points like NYC altogether. So some are coming with marketable skills and education,
Of course this will not make every Dominican wealthy.
Yes there are plenty of educated Dominicans that came here but their degrees were not accepted here. They had to start all over with nothing. I know this because I know quite a few. But because they are educated they had the ability to rise up here very quickly and help other family members that may not have come here as educated.
SuperMario you are also contradicting yourself, now you are saying you felt comfortable walking around Morrisania. You have said previously that you can't stand Morrisania, it looks like a wasteland. Now you are saying that it is no different from the West Bronx.
Another thing, why are dividing people into all these different groups? The truth is that once your family has been in NYC for over 30 years, you will have other people from other groups married into your family, and that will result in children that come from all those groups. So most of us that have been here for sometime don't belong to one group anymore.
SuperMario I am not saying that all Dominicans come with money. Neither do all of the people in the other groups that you have mentioned. But the fact remains that Dominicans are probably the most financially independent group. What I mean by that is that if you are Dominican and live in the West Bronx, Washington Heights, or Inwood you don't have to leave your neighborhood to purchase anything. You can virtually also purchase all of your services from other Dominicans. Just like the Chinese in Flushing.
So why is this different from blacks in Morrisania, C. Harlem, Bed-stuy...everybody there is black (sans Morrisania). They can purchase things from each other too.
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You have your own lawyers, doctors, teachers, along with the business people that can sell you every conceivable good or servce that you would need. This may not make them wealthy but independence is a wealth in itself. Those businesses that you make light of like barber shops and hair salons are allowing people to take care of their families. This is the American dream. I know you are throwing in the drug selling for effect, but every single group in this country has that element. What's new?
No group has a bigger drug stigma then the Dominicans. Especially in NYC were they run the drug trade.
Quote:
In fact some Dominicans are coming to the US and moving to other states and bypassing the traditional settling points like NYC altogether. So some are coming with marketable skills and education,
Of course this will not make every Dominican wealthy.
Nope...Dominican education usually occurs here. The ones coming from the island have no education. That is the reason many of them try to come over here.
Quote:
SuperMario you are also contradicting yourself, now you are saying you felt comfortable walking around Morrisania. You have said previously that you can't stand Morrisania, it looks like a wasteland. Now you are saying that it is no different from the West Bronx.
I also said Highbridge was a terrible neighborhood. But if you read my prior posts you know that im not terrified of vacant lots like I am a dense tenement block. Morrisania has alot of private homes and not as much buildings as Highbridge, also the population density is less so less people hang out in front. I dont like Morrisania cause of the projects but I would walk through there before Highbridge. Even though they are both bad neighborhoods.
Ok I will only speak for Harlem because that is where I live now and have actually lived for more than 20 years. The black people in Harlem can purchase some things from each other, but most stores in Harlem that sell electronics, household appliances especially big ticket items are not black owned. Black people also don't own many clothing stores. In fact the type of stores I have just mentioned some are owned by Dominicans. Don't underestimate the value of this. You have said previously that you are attending college, you will learn more and more how valuable this is to society as a whole.
IMO all Black and Latin groups are stigmatized by the drug selling stereotype. But who is selling out in Montana, Idaho, and Iowa to name a few? Why is the crime rate in some of the towns in those places higher than NYC and they have virtually no Latin and Black population?
I don't want to mislead anyone with the education statement, I know that plenty of people come here to receive education. But in very recent years this is changing somewhat people are coming here that are educated. Not a lot but some. In the past there have been some as well. Like I have stated I know some personally.
I don't want to keep debating back and forth about your last paragraph but at least you admit that there are a lot of private homes in Morrisania.
We also have something in common. I don't like dense tenement blocks either. I hope that when they get around to really developing Morrisania they don't make it where it is dense.
Check out Cambria Heights and Laurelton Queens, just because a area is populated by Black and Latin people, it can still be a beautiful area, just like anywhere else. You can also welcome different people and incomes into an area. The new residents should respect the old residents and also respect their traditions. When introducing new things to any area they have to be in conjuction with the old things. Not in replace of.
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There are tons of africans coming into the Highbridge area where I teach. They really aren't educated. Most of them can't spell their names. I guess it's just the culture people come from. Luckily some of the husbands learn English though, so I can keep in touch with them about how their child is doing in school.
^ This is true. However in the recent immigrant population. A lot of the men learn English and gain skills and better employment, or open their businesses that services their populations. The women usually work in the hairbraiding shops, or perform services for those that do, like babysitting, cooking meals, and also selling meals to the ones that work in the hair braiding shops, things like this. Some quickly become homeowners as well. The children are highly encouraged to get education and succeed.
There are tons of africans coming into the Highbridge area where I teach. They really aren't educated. Most of them can't spell their names. I guess it's just the culture people come from. Luckily some of the husbands learn English though, so I can keep in touch with them about how their child is doing in school.
I see plenty of Africans in High Bridge as well as in Morrisania (around 3rd Av/168th St), Morris Heights (around Grand Av/176th St), and in Mount Eden (around 174th/Walton). I go to Bronx Community College and I am seeing a whole bunch of African classmates.
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We're having problems at my school with the new African immigrants. What I mean is, my school doesn't have a translator for the African parents. I feel bad for them since they never know what's going on. The school translates notices into english and spanish, but leave out a good 25% of the parents who speak whatever language from where they're from in Africa.
For a lot of African Immigrants the common 2nd language is French, most can understand French and communicate in this language. Can notices be translated into French or phone calls spoken in this language?
Last year, I taught at a school in the S. Bronx, but I'm not sure if it was in the Morrisania area or not. If not, it's pretty close, I think. The location is Forest Avenue between 156th & 158th Streets, a couple blocks off the Jackson Avenue stop on the 2/5.
There are a lot of projects there -- St. Mary's Park, Adams, Forest, McKinley -- and a number of older apartment buildings. However, there's a lot of newer construction (don't know the exact age, but guessing 1980's/90's?), primarily rowhouse/townhouse style homes. All of which have iron fences, often with spikes on the tops .....
Two of the three middle schools in my building pulled their students from the neighborhood and were on the City's "persistently dangerous" list. Some of our [high school] kids did come from the neighborhood, but many came from elsewhere in the Bronx, so we didn't have quite as much trouble. However, gang activity was a problem -- not so much in school, which was more-or-less seen as "neutral" territory -- but some of our kids were assaulted within a block or two of campus.
Does any of that help? Yeah, probably not .....
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