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"A more troubling study, commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Mayors and The Council on Metro Economies and the New American City, projected that upstate cities would lag behind the rest of the nation in economic growth through 2020. "
"The study, by IHS Global Insight, ranked Albany 338th out of 363 metropolitan areas, while Rochester ranked 343rd, Syracuse 348th, Ithaca 352nd, Glens Falls 353rd, Buffalo 354th, Elmira, 355th, Kingston 356th, Utica 362nd and Binghamton 363rd, or last."
So, this pretty much gets to the heart of the OP's question? Why is this occurring? I'd say crime is a factor (Syracuse is in the 91st percentile in crime in the US, meaning there's more crime there than 91% of US cities, other Upstate cities not far behind) . Other factors are weather (both the snowiest cities and the cloudiest cities outside a few places in the PNW), high taxes (highest in the nation property taxes and top 10% in gas tax and sales taxes), and restrictive government / personal freedoms while giving free money to certain segments of society.
You can show people all the cute neighborhoods that you want, and I fully admit there's a lot of good things about Upstate, but at the end of the day, they have to see the bad with the good, and its not bringing people there.
I've never heard anyone in my entire life say, "I'm moving to Utica" or "I'm moving to Binghamton" or "I'm moving to Elmira". And to me, that's a problem. Because I hear people everyday telling me that they're moving to Texas, and NC, and Florida.
That Syracuse crime aspect comes down to differences in city size and not so much the amount of crime. For instance, why does Syracuse and Albany-Schenectady-Troy as a metro rank higher than Raleigh? http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2012...teRankings.pdf
What would the crime rate be for cities within the core 25 square miles, which is the land size of Syracuse? That is why metro areas are used for many comparisons and even these cities, as I've already provided, has quite a few nice neighborhoods.
As for the rankings, they are based on projections of growth, which can change as time goes on. I already stated that a similar situation occurred in terms of population figures between 2000-2010, which had inaccurate estimates. So, time will tell and you still have to find a job as an individual, because the growth may be in sectors that aren't relevant to you.
If you get a chance to read the whole study, which has been posted in bothe Rochester and Syracuse forums, it shows when the metros areas are slated to "recover" to pre recession figures.
There is also the factor of understanding where these metros are in general in terms of economy size, which is also in the study and even their location. If we go by the study, places like Midland TX and Fayetteville AR should be on his radar, but would they fit his needs? You have a couple of usual spots, but with that comes increased costs due to demand. That may or may not be an issue in regards to the type of living he is looking for, but they may not be as affordable as people think they are. So, for the OP, it may be a matter of networking and getting input from people in these Upstate areas, if he is still interested.
Weather isn't a factor, as many cold weather metros have a high/above average rate of growth. So, I don't think that comes into play.
In many of these lower tax states, your cost may accrue differently in terms of more driving time, HOA's, higher crime rates as a metro/state/region, higher poverty rates in some cases and higher median home prices. Even metros like the ones in question in the thread will have average annual pay on par with or higher than these high growth areas and cost on of living on par or even a little bit lower. Here are the highest-paying markets for employees in all jobs - The Business Journals
I was talking about within the city limits within that time period, not the metro.
.
You can't relegate a statement like that to the municpal boundary.
"People are leaving Buffalo!!!!" When most of the movers from the city are moving across a municipal border into the suburbs. Buffalo-Metro has increased its population since 2010.
All the negative propaganda is directed at the city. Buffalo and Rochester are both poor cities (top 5 in the country), but their Metro areas are middle of the road.
"A more troubling study, commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Mayors and The Council on Metro Economies and the New American City, projected that upstate cities would lag behind the rest of the nation in economic growth through 2020. "
I guess the sources would not agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight
So, this pretty much gets to the heart of the OP's question? Why is this occurring? I'd say crime is a factor (Syracuse is in the 91st percentile in crime in the US, meaning there's more crime there than 91% of US cities, other Upstate cities not far behind) .
Crime is concentrated within the municipal boundaries of each city in specific pockets. When accounting for the suburbs, I doubt these cities are any more dangerous than anywhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight
Other factors are weather (both the snowiest cities and the cloudiest cities outside a few places in the PNW),
Weather doesn't make Middle Class people move. Also, the cloudiness is localized and concentrated into three months (mid October to mid January) due to Lake Effect localization. Buffalo and Rochester have the sunniest summers in the Northeast in the summer months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight
high taxes (highest in the nation property taxes and top 10% in gas tax and sales taxes),
Highest property taxes are further down state. Even with the property taxes, the Upstate New York cities are below the national average in overall cost of living. Buffalo was ranked most affordable large city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight
and restrictive government / personal freedoms while giving free money to certain segments of society.
Unsubstantiated political view. People don't move for politics, either. The most important factors with relocation are jobs, spouses / marriage, and housing costs. Taxes, politics, and all the other BS are talking points with no evidence. (Actually, evidence points to the contrary with taxes).
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight
You can show people all the cute neighborhoods that you want, and I fully admit there's a lot of good things about Upstate, but at the end of the day, they have to see the bad with the good, and its not bringing people there.
I've never heard anyone in my entire life say, "I'm moving to Utica" or "I'm moving to Binghamton" or "I'm moving to Elmira". And to me, that's a problem. Because I hear people everyday telling me that they're moving to Texas, and NC, and Florida.
This is true. Most people who live in New York are from there. The only city attracting new residents is NYC. As far as Texas and NC, we could care less what they do. Florida is a special case, since its new residents are retirees and immigrants. Young professionals don't move to Florida.
Weather isn't a factor, as many cold weather metros have a high/above average rate of growth. So, I don't think that comes into play.
Correct, weather is a non-factor. The most powerful cities on the continent are cold/cool-winter climates (NYC, Chicago, Toronto, and Boston). Washington DC is borderline "cold" also to some.
That Syracuse crime aspect comes down to differences in city size and not so much the amount of crime. For instance, why does Syracuse and Albany-Schenectady-Troy as a metro rank higher than Raleigh? http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2012...teRankings.pdf
What would the crime rate be for cities within the core 25 square miles, which is the land size of Syracuse? That is why metro areas are used for many comparisons and even these cities, as I've already provided, has quite a few nice neighborhoods.
As for the rankings, they are based on projections of growth, which can change as time goes on. I already stated that a similar situation occurred in terms of population figures between 2000-2010, which had inaccurate estimates. So, time will tell and you still have to find a job as an individual, because the growth may be in sectors that aren't relevant to you.
If you get a chance to read the whole study, which has been posted in bothe Rochester and Syracuse forums, it shows when the metros areas are slated to "recover" to pre recession figures.
There is also the factor of understanding where these metros are in general in terms of economy size, which is also in the study and even their location. If we go by the study, places like Midland TX and Fayetteville AR should be on his radar, but would they fit his needs? You have a couple of usual spots, but with that comes increased costs due to demand. That may or may not be an issue in regards to the type of living he is looking for, but they may not be as affordable as people think they are. So, for the OP, it may be a matter of networking and getting input from people in these Upstate areas, if he is still interested.
Weather isn't a factor, as many cold weather metros have a high/above average rate of growth. So, I don't think that comes into play.
You're doing it again. You keep bringing metropolitan statistics into a discussion where I am talking about city statistics. Why can't you discuss something without changing the parameters of the discussion?
If NY is #2 in post recession recovery, why is it still waiting to recover to pre-recession figures? It makes no sense because its all part of the Cuomo spin machine that you're buying into.
Why does it matter if Raleigh annexed areas? If it makes it better, then it was the right thing to do. City size means nothing to crime "rate", as that is a rate per 100,000. The core city of Syracuse people are moving out of, the core city of Raleigh people are moving into.
BTW, you brought up Raleigh this time, not me. Last time I brought up Raleigh or Detroit in a comparison, I need a prybar to get you to let go of that.
I read the Rochester forums, and a lady recently moved there and basically said it isn't all that cheap even compared to downstate. Her taxes are nearly offsetting any savings on the home price downstate. Basically, its a statewide problem.
Weather isn't a factor for people to stay put, near their families, but is definitely a factor in getting new residents.
You can't relegate a statement like that to the municpal boundary.
"People are leaving Buffalo!!!!" When most of the movers from the city are moving across a municipal border into the suburbs. Buffalo-Metro has increased its population since 2010.
All the negative propaganda is directed at the city. Buffalo and Rochester are both poor cities (top 5 in the country), but their Metro areas are middle of the road.
Crime is concentrated within the municipal boundaries of each city in specific pockets. When accounting for the suburbs, I doubt these cities are any more dangerous than anywhere else.
Weather doesn't make Middle Class people move. Also, the cloudiness is localized and concentrated into three months (mid October to mid January) due to Lake Effect localization. Buffalo and Rochester have the sunniest summers in the Northeast in the summer months.
Highest property taxes are further down state. Even with the property taxes, the Upstate New York cities are below the national average in overall cost of living. Buffalo was ranked most affordable large city.
Unsubstantiated political view. People don't move for politics, either. The most important factors with relocation are jobs, spouses / marriage, and housing costs. Taxes, politics, and all the other BS are talking points with no evidence. (Actually, evidence points to the contrary with taxes).
This is true. Most people who live in New York are from there. The only city attracting new residents is NYC. As far as Texas and NC, we could care less what they do. Florida is a special case, since its new residents are retirees and immigrants. Young professionals don't move to Florida.
I'm not dogging out Buffalo, but I was just posting information in regards to cities. I respect your opinion in spite of what I thought of it, but that was what the info said about the cities. Dynamics are different though, as these cities probably haven't annexed anything in several decades versus cities in other regions. So, that does have to be kept in mind.
When you are ranked near last, you would expect zero construction and a declining population. Ithaca has a stable employment base (start with Cornell and Ithaca College), a low unemployment rate, a metropolitan area that's growing, and tons of construction either just completed, underway or in the hopper.
When you are ranked near last, you would expect zero construction and a declining population. Ithaca has a stable employment base (start with Cornell and Ithaca College), a low unemployment rate, a metropolitan area that's growing, and tons of construction either just completed, underway or in the hopper.
So yes, I will discredit the course.
Not necessarily. Ithaca has a low unemployment rate because college students not seeking work aren't counted. I would bet the true unemployment rate there is the same as anywhere else Upstate.
Not necessarily. Ithaca has a low unemployment rate because college students not seeking work aren't counted. I would bet the true unemployment rate there is the same as anywhere else Upstate.
Other than that, Ithaca is a real nice town.
I believe that this would apply for other college towns and it is based on those in the workforce or seeking work. So, it would apply to those that fit the description and I don't believe that college students have anything to do with the rate. How the Government Measures Unemployment
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-31-2014 at 02:30 PM..
Not necessarily. Ithaca has a low unemployment rate because college students not seeking work aren't counted. I would bet the true unemployment rate there is the same as anywhere else Upstate.
I have no idea what this means.
College students not seeking work aren't counted? Anyone not seeking work is not counted.
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