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Waves to Karen-Hi Neighbor!
Karen the situation in Stamford makes my stomach turn-you guys really got shafted under the table with secret dealings and back-stabbing (group-to-group) I am so glad you went to the meeting, though I am sick with fear that it is too little to late, as I am to understand the Moorseville project is a go no matter what-lawsuits aside. I have been dealing/battling this for a little over a year here and the more I learn, see, and expreience, the more I know that this entire situation (wind power) was handled the wrong way from start to finish-the State should have regulated this private industry-leaving the decisions up to the individual town governments was like letting the coyote into the hen house-or the greedy small-town politician into the till.
Mouse, I am not sure what your entire post means-I am very familiar with the planned destruction, oh I mean construction, in Western NY. Please remember, there is more to NY than Buffalo-it is a pretty large state and with some research you would find out the other towns/targeted areas are for the most part just like how I described. So sorry to have omitted your specific situation, but you and I have been round this pole before haven't we. YOu are a smart city slicker and I am a dumb liberal, people hating downstater that moved upstate. I don't know the specific turbines going on the lake, but I know the type of turbine being used here can NOT be on when the wind is over 25mph-they must shut them down for safety reasons. If Lackawana residents determined that a wind turbine instalation is OK with them, than I say you made your bed, and at least the destruction was anticipated and accepted. In my area, and Karens' area, and in lots of OTHER areas in the country (remember there is life beyond Buffalo) we do NOT feel industiral development and destruction is appropriate (our tallest structures are church steaples and then barns)
I will not go into the facts that wind power does NOT lessen dependence on fossil fuel, it does NOT shut down prodution of said fuel, War for Oil will continue, and all the big boys are making MILLIONS on a flawed technology just because politically every governer and senator HAS to jump on the green bandwagon-otherwise they are criticized. Enron (now gone) GE, Shell and BP (the two new players announced last week) Goldman Sachs and lots of foriegn companies will make billions in tax break and subsidies and the towns get a crumb of bread in the form of PILOTS (they don't have to pay property tax like the rest of us) FURTHER, please do some research on local jobs. In Central and Northern NY-the already constructed turbines made LOTS of promises of local jobs, yet only one or two minimum wage security jobs ever came about. They bring in outsiders to destruct the land, pour the concrete, build the turbines (because they know how), etc, etc, Once it is done-they throw a security job out there to say a local job was created. PLEASE be careful of the weightless promises you read in the propaganda. Do some research on the already completed installations-they are where the truth lies. Also, "Voice of Tug Hill" and "Life under the turbines", both on youtube, are VERY good examples of how people REALLY feel after the fact-after they let the wind companies take over their town, their beauty, their lives.
Just say no you are without a doubt persistent on this issue. The facts are windmills are here folks so my advice to you is if you don't like them, move! And as my user name applies just because some on tughill are upset over the windmills I can show you others who like them.
If Lackawana residents determined that a wind turbine instalation is OK with them, than I say you made your bed, and at least the destruction was anticipated and accepted.
What part of 'Bethlehem Steel' & brownfield did you not understand? They are being built on post-industrial, contaminated wasteland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustSayNo
In my area, and Karens' area, and in lots of OTHER areas in the country (remember there is life beyond Buffalo) we do NOT feel industiral development and destruction is appropriate (our tallest structures are church steaples and then barns)
[...]
I will not go into the facts that wind power does NOT lessen dependence on fossil fuel, it does NOT shut down prodution of said fuel, War for Oil will continue, and all the big boys are making MILLIONS on a flawed technology just because politically every governer and senator HAS to jump on the green bandwagon-otherwise they are criticized.
[...]
how people REALLY feel after the fact-after they let the wind companies take over their town, their beauty, their lives.
Peace
Uhm my point is people out in these way out communities live inefficiently to begin with. Youre not out there living off the land. Your on the power grid. Yet you wish to contribute nothing to greater area as a whole. Yeah you can argue whether these turbines are going to be a major source of energy or not... who cares. If they start losing money, they'll stop being built. You keep saying they will be there forever.. uh they'll be there forever if they work out. If not - they wont be. They could taken down easier than they were put up.
Also, They way people freak out about these things, youd think the turbine converts air currents into toxic, nuclear waste and spews it out all over the bottom of the tower.
You're a NIMBY, and your complaints are aesthetic, nothing more. The people freaking out don't like seeing a turbine so then they start saying how they are money-losing investment scams. Well as soon as thats revealed the $ will dry up. Why should you care? If the area isnt restricted from certain types of construction and someone wants to build something there they can.
And, making this whole thing even more hialrious to me: its usually the conservatoid rural-folk that sit there and decry strict zoning regulations as infringing on capitalism and individuals property rights (I.e. Portland, OR - that can outright prevent you from developing your own property done to prevent sprawl and preserve greenspace/rural areas, which IMO they are absolutely correct in doing so)
What part of 'Bethlehem Steel' & brownfield did you not understand? They are being built on post-industrial, contaminated wasteland.
Holy crap, Mouse, are you capable of ever saying something that is not rude or ignorant? There are many methods of using words to make a point without looking like an angry person. Again, I know about the develpment. Did the residents of the area have no say at all? Were they not allowed to have an opinion on what was going to happen with the wasteland? Read the words and think about what someone is typing before picking a word a screaming that the author is "stupid" or "is just garbage." Believe it or not, I may know a little more about the "entire" situation than you do. The fact that you disagree with me does not invalidate my information-it just means we disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aka_mouse
Uhm my point is people out in these way out communities live inefficiently to begin with. Youre not out there living off the land. Your on the power grid. Yet you wish to contribute nothing to greater area as a whole.
This comment just once again shows your inability to expand your mind beyond the city limits of Buffalo. How the heck do know enough to make a comment about how people live in rural areas? How do you know how we heat our homes, how many lights we have on, how much we contribute to an area ? I will bet anything that many of my neighbors and ourselves use less fossil fuels and we, as business owners whom care greatly about our town and county, contribute a heck of a lot more to our area than you do to Buffalo. Mouse, I beg you, expand your mind, allow yourself to be a wiser man, don't always use your baseline of info for all your opinions and comments. There is a lot of difference in this state and country-certainly we all can't be stupid and wrong and only you right!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aka_mouse
Yeah you can argue whether these turbines are going to be a major source of energy or not... who cares. If they start losing money, they'll stop being built. You keep saying they will be there forever.. uh they'll be there forever if they work out. If not - they wont be. They could taken down easier than they were put up.
Well, actually I DO care. This is a major point. Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Why allow a private corporation to come in and do what they want just so they can make money? Why not take control of the place you live and love and participate in the future of your town? I actually have never typed the words that "they will be there forever." YOu must be confusing me with someone else. The removal of turbines, called decommissioning, is a very important point actually. It is imperative that a wind company put money into a decommissioning fund prior to cutting down the first tree. I beleive the current estimate to remove one turbine, base, and tranmission lines is $3 million (I may be off on that, but it is close). If the wind company does not put the money aside, they can claim there is no money to decommission and then the town is left holding bag. I can assure you, no town in my area has one $3 million, let alone 20-40 $3 millions to take the things down the day that they are no longer the "in-thing" to build and the subsidies and incentives dry up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aka_mouse
You're a NIMBY, and your complaints are aesthetic, nothing more. The people freaking out don't like seeing a turbine so then they start saying how they are money-losing investment scams. Well as soon as thats revealed the $ will dry up. Why should you care? If the area isnt restricted from certain types of construction and someone wants to build something there they can.
If you had taken the time to read my contributions on this subject, you would know that I am not a NIMBY, I am a NIABY (not in ANYBODY'S backyard). My opinion is that I do not believe that turbines belong next to homes, schools, populated areas. While I agree that I do not like the way they look, I also do not like the way the falling down barns and rotted mobile homes look in the county. But I am not complaining about that-my point is my opinions are not formed based on aesthetics, they are formed based on principles, tactics, and democracy. There is currently a movie on cable called "the Corporation" it is a great opportunity to see the history of Corporations in this country and around the world, and can provide insight into how much control, power, and money just a few have over the many. I really urge you watch it, I think you might find it interesting and enlightening. Further, please go and read the multitude of musings I have made regarding this subject before you come back and yell accusations at me about my opinion, it really would help us have a healthy discussion, which I am happy to have as I believe it provides information to all that are interested in the subject.
Finally, TugHillTina, I truely am glad that you and many of your neighbors are happy with the Turbines-that is my whole point. If a community is OK with this development than there is nothing further to discuss. I am persistant on this subject because I want everyone whom is impacted by this to have information, opinions, experiences to draw from as they make their own decisions. Unfortunately, many folks in many communities are NOT happy with the prospect of turbines, but they don't know what to do, where to start, how to contribute to the decision and the future of their town. That is who I am fighting for, typing for, researching for. People have a great deal of power as a group, as individuals not so much. I firmly beleive that those who wish to be part of a decision, not just told what the decision is, have every right to do so-this is still a democratic country. My town recently amended the zoning law to Ban Industrial turbines, so my personal sitution is over. But is is not just ME that I care about. This is a struggle between the "the corporation" and "the people." I side with the people, the corporations do not need my help-they get enough of that from the government.
Well mouse, thanks firing-up my brain early this morning, one less cup of Joe I need.
nice to hear from a neighbor....love the country in Delaware county! What brought my husband and my family to this area is the Beauty of it all. In this democracy, we all have a right to voice our opionion. I believe we should all get a little more involved in our enviorment, and the places where we live. Little town mentality...love it! comming from a big town on Long Island!
Hi Karen! Same here, like almost everyone else in our area that is not 5th generation! LI to NYC to LI to Delaware County for us! We love it, we are proud of our town and its residents and respect the area the people greatly. We came into the turbine mess as it just began, and we were shocked as we began our research on just how it was "effected" - the tactics are unreal and eye-openning. We wanted to help build our town for the future, but this was not what we expected. But, the plus side is everyone knows a lot more now know and as a group together we can move forward to keep our little upstate towns smart and strong and sucessful for decades to come!
I am so glad that you, like us, found your place up here and find that it makes you happy inside and out
Stay strong Stamford, at least don't let the towers go up without a fight-I know you guys are really divided between for and against-you have a tougher battle than we did, but don't give up!
While I agree that I do not like the way they look, I also do not like the way the falling down barns and rotted mobile homes look in the county. But I am not complaining about that-my point is my opinions are not formed based on aesthetics, they are formed based on principles, tactics, and democracy. There is currently a movie on cable called "the Corporation" it is a great opportunity to see the history of Corporations in this country and around the world, and can provide insight into how much control, power, and money just a few have over the many. I really urge you watch it, I think you might find it interesting and enlightening.
I probably would like it, and I can guarantee I hate corporations more than you do. Im saying you can no more prevent your hick neighbor from being white trash, than you can from a wind power company legitimately buying property and using it the way they want when there is NO ZONING RESTRICTION. If the local population is ignorant thats thier own fault. It sucks but hey... what are ya gonna do? I also watched the 2 documentaries you referenced in a previous post on YouTube.. and then I watched another one that was listed that showed the people in the town of Fenner, NY than had no problem whatsoever with the towers. They even went as far to say the exact opposite that the complainers say.
(coincidentally, they mention in there that cars and coal fired power plants have caused an increase in the acidity of precipitation that has already turned lakes in the Adirondacks completely sterile. )
A couple other things.. you mention these wind towers should be built away from populated areas.... uhm you are the unpopulated area. Theres almost no where you can go in NYS that doesnt have some people living in it somewhere. Theres hundreds, if not well over a 1000 tiny towns in this state. We do not have true uninhabited places like they do out west. (e.g. when you reach the end of the town.. thats it... there is nothing until you get to the next town. Places in NYS get sparse, but hardly to that level. Even the huge parks have towns inside.)
I brought up Bethlehem steel cause tons of people think THAT is an eyesore. I think people around here want to see something, anything, get built. I agree with them. It would be different if it provided the jobs it used to. It doesnt. Its over a mile mile of crumbling brick structures on both sides of rt 5 thru lackawanna. (I personally dont care either way) However.. is what is basically minimalist white pinwheels above it an improvement or a deterioration -- Discuss.
The two images are iconclastic, and that's part of the problem. the minimalist white windmills belong in some sterile, futurist society, and the crumbling brick buildings are the testaments to a now-obsolete world-wide economic philosophy. Maybe the juxtaposition of the two images would make a nice, arty black and white photograph worthy of an award.
As for me, and thousands like me, I am a rural purist whose dream it is to live in an idealized version of 19th century rural America. That includes meticulously and authentically rennovating an old farmhouse until it looks like spread from Country Living magazine, and working on my "farmette" or hobby farm, raising exotic chickens and growing boutique vegetables. Sorry, but a stark-white, 410 ft. rotating steel structure doesn't fit into my lifestyle fantasies.
Good Morning Mouse! Thank you for the reply and thank you for looking at the videos-I do appreciate your research!
Just a few points, to clear up some things. Regarding the placement of the turbines. 1)The companies do not buy the land and then build what they want. The process in the rural areas is that the companies "lease" portions of private property, paying the landholder between $3K-8K for every turbine that they place on that land. This results in no responsibilty for taxes, or for the effect the towers have on the land and the surrounding land. The Lease that the landowner signs is very specific-the company has purchased rights for the land, the air, and the wind on the portion of the propery and they can do what ever the want, ie build a road throught the property, run lines on the property, build pads, towers, and erect fences. The lease also states that the landowner may NOT speak negatively about the project as a whole, the towers or construction (and the process), the employees, the sound, the flicker, the maintence of the project etc.
2)The wind companies than pay what is known as PILOTS (Payments in lieu of taxes) to the town and the county as oppossed to taxes that are based on the value of the structure. So, insteed of paying taxes on $2 million turbines, they usually pay between $100,000 to $600,000 (a really huge installation). This small amount appears to be huge to the small towns when the annual budget is often $150-200,000 per year. In some cases, the companies have "paid-off" neighboring properties with a few thousand as well-all with the same rules-no complaints, they "own" your land, air, etc. So, I wanted you to know that the land is not being purchased, paid for, and taxes generated. They are not becoming "part of the town" they are just "visitors."
3)Regarding the Zoning Laws, if the law does not specifically address industrial wind turbines, or there are no zoning laws simply because they were never needed before, the turbines have a chance to come in the back door and WRITE amendments to the Zoning laws allowing/regulating the turbines. My town's Zoning Law was clear-nothing over 40 ft tall in the town (church steeples excluded I believe) HOWEVER, since we did not have specific language regarding wind turbines, there was a good chance if voted they would pass. An amendment has been written, banning industrial and allowing farm turbines as reviewed and approved by the planning board.
4)Regarding populated versus unpopulated. There is a problem here. True, relative to Buffalo, other cities, and suburbs, yes we are "unpopulated." But that is relative, as the planned placement of the turbines were as close as 1000 feet from homes (all based on where the wind is and where the homes are) As you can imagine, in rural, mountainous areas many homes have been built on the mountians, around the mountians, etc. In many of these areas, the turbines' "best" placement is again 1000-3000 ft from homes. Placement is based on wind and access to exisiting tranmission lines to the grid. Again, those lines are not in the middle of nowhere, they are near the population (for obvious reasons) SO, while there is a vast amount of open space, due to wind, lines, WATERSHED (a big thing here-NYC says "NO WAY" to screwing with our water for wind power) the open area is not where the companies want to build. You could see how close the turbines are in the videos you watched, and please remember the Fenner film interviewed lease holders, leaseholders that say the same things, using the same script. Leaseholders whom are making money off the towers, while their neighbors (who's homes are usually closer to the towers than the leaseholder) are forced to live with them with nothing to gain and everything to loose.
Now, if the wind companies purchased the land, paid full taxes (resulting in less taxes for all other residents and increased budgets for improvement of the town and schools), provided the electricity first to the host town, and then into the grid (resulting in lower electric bills for the the town), sited the towers on their own land with minimal effects to the neigbors and the town (noise, flicker, ice throw), took full responsibilty for towers (ie fire, damage caused by run-off, etc.) then I would look at this a bit differently. But all of this above is NOT the case-it is the opposite and really puts the host towns and residents in the drivers seat as far as "all the bad, and very little of the good (PILOTS)"
Regarding Bethlehem steel I do understand that that is a different case-it was already industiral, now it is decaying and not suitable for non-industrial use. In this case, I do not disagree with the siting, but I do disagree that the locals will not get any of the electricity, and I believe Lacawanna is getting something like $12.5K per turbine, or $100,000 per year. Now that to me, is silly. Lacawanna economically could use a hell of a lot more per year for a project like the one slated. Certainly the wind company did their song and dance and took advantage of the town and the site. Again, politics, principle, and money! If another company came in and bought the land and paid full taxes on the develpment on the land , and brought jobs and product to the area (think manufacturing or something similiar) than I think the site would have been revitalized and contribute to the town. The wind company took advantage-knowing full well the site was an eyesore, not in high demand or interest from others, so they swooped in and got another sweatheart deal.
OK, excellent discussion this round! Thanks and look for "the Corporation" I bet you will enjoy it!
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Round and Round we go
