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As things are - on little knowledge of what happened - they need to work out a way to please everybody. She certainly can't deny her father, and I hope her husband isn't going to use his distance as a control issue.
I disagree with this totally. Whether or not you agree with your husband or found his actions justified is irrelevant. He is your husband and you need to respect him and support him. Period.
I am going to assume, unless you tell me otherwise, that you haven't had to deal with an abusive or out of control spouse before. I have - and so have lots of other people. I tried (wrongly it seems) for years to support his POV, to justify his actions toward me and others, and to show him so much loyalty that he would never question or abuse me again - to no avail.
He tried to destroy my relationships with my friends and eventually my immediate family. This is a common way of controlling and abusing others - isolation from friends and family. His unrealistic demands put unwarranted separation between me and my family - and between my children and their grandparents.
I'm not saying that the OP's situation is the same - frankly she hasn't given us enough information to determine whether it is or not. And actually, she does allude to her belief that her husband was out of place in his actions. I don't think that spouses owe it to spouses to support them when they are doing wrong. My gosh, where do you draw the line? What if the husband was intentionally rude to others? What if he was a tax evader? What if he was a perpetual liar and asking her to cover for him all the time? What if he was asking her to hide a crime? Your blanket statement of "He is your husband and you need to respect him and support him. Period." is...well, pretty out there in my opinion.
The child shouldn't have to be put in the middle. He shouldn't have to suffer because two grown men are arguing. This is not about the child (as far as we know) and it shouldn't become about the child. Unless the grandfather is abusive, the child should be allowed to access to the grandfather whether the grown men are getting along or not. Sheeze.
Who's talking about using the child as leverage, by the way?
Nothing I've said was in jest. I think it's very telling that you would think so. It's tragic that you chose an abusive man as a husband, but that's quite a bit different than the situation we're talking about here. The OP has a family disagreement that includes her husband. She should support him no matter what, over everyone else.
No, I have not had, nor would I accept, an abusive spouse. I wouldn't have a disloyal one either for that matter.
I think you and I may just have fundamentally different views of what a marriage should be. I believe everyone should offer unwavering support to their spouse. Yes, even when they're wrong. If they're not willing to do that, they should leave the marriage.
That's my point, the child should not be put in the middle, but that's essentially what you're recommending. For the OP to say "Work this problem out or I'm going to visit without you, and taking our son, too..." is using him as leverage. The OP should tell her father that until they're able to visit as a family, none of them will be coming.
As things are - on little knowledge of what happened - they need to work out a way to please everybody. She certainly can't deny her father, and I hope her husband isn't going to use his distance as a control issue.
Why can't she deny her father? When she got married, her father gave her away to her husband. She should be loyal to him now, not her father.
Nothing I've said was in jest. I think it's very telling that you would think so. It's tragic that you chose an abusive man as a husband, but that's quite a bit different than the situation we're talking about here. The OP has a family disagreement that includes her husband. She should support him no matter what, over everyone else.
No, I have not had, nor would I accept, an abusive spouse. I wouldn't have a disloyal one either for that matter.
I think you and I may just have fundamentally different views of what a marriage should be. I believe everyone should offer unwavering support to their spouse. Yes, even when they're wrong. If they're not willing to do that, they should leave the marriage.
That's my point, the child should not be put in the middle, but that's essentially what you're recommending. For the OP to say "Work this problem out or I'm going to visit without you, and taking our son, too..." is using him as leverage. The OP should tell her father that until they're able to visit as a family, none of them will be coming.
Wait a doggone minute. Unless you know the OP personally or unless she's been PMing you, you don't know anything more about the situation that the rest of us do. And we don't have enough information to know whether her husband was way out of line or not. In fact, the OP implies that he WAS seriously out of line and that his behavior was so bad it was hard for her to believe he did it.
Apparently you and I DO have fundamentally different ideas about marriage. I believe that a husband and wife should be loyal to each other, and protective of each other generally speaking, but like every good rule, there's an exception. I do not think that spouses should enable their SO to be abusive, controlling, unreasonable, or otherwise dysfunctional. The depth of blind loyalty you are preaching is downright alarming.
Thankfully, I am married to a man who doesn't feel at all threatened when I occasionally point out to him that he's in error, or that he's being unreasonable, or unfair, or his decision is based on a faulty premise. He and I respect the other's intellect and we trust the other person's moral standard, and though sometimes it's difficult to hear, we appreciate feedback, even negative feedback, from each other. So there's no need to ever utter the words that my husband would find absolutely laughable: "Everyone should offer unwavering support of their spouse, even when they're wrong and if they're not willing to do that, they should leave the marriage." Wow.
You never did answer my questions either, by the way. What if a spouse is abusive, or deceitful, harming others, breaking the law, etc. Do you think their spouse should offer unwavering support even then?
Why can't she deny her father? When she got married, her father gave her away to her husband. She should be loyal to him now, not her father.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not anyone's chattel. My daddy, who I dearly love, did not "give me away," and my husband, who "loves me as Christ loves the Church," does not own me.
Nothing I've said was in jest. I think it's very telling that you would think so. It's tragic that you chose an abusive man as a husband, but that's quite a bit different than the situation we're talking about here. The OP has a family disagreement that includes her husband. She should support him no matter what, over everyone else.
No, I have not had, nor would I accept, an abusive spouse. I wouldn't have a disloyal one either for that matter.
I think you and I may just have fundamentally different views of what a marriage should be. I believe everyone should offer unwavering support to their spouse. Yes, even when they're wrong. If they're not willing to do that, they should leave the marriage.
That's my point, the child should not be put in the middle, but that's essentially what you're recommending. For the OP to say "Work this problem out or I'm going to visit without you, and taking our son, too..." is using him as leverage. The OP should tell her father that until they're able to visit as a family, none of them will be coming.
Oh dear. Do you believe wives should bend to their husband's will in all decisions? I don't. Men are just as capable of being wrong, and pigheaded as wives and in-laws. We don't have enough info to say that's the case here, only the OP knows.
But, if her husband is in the wrong, she should feel free to spend Thanksgiving wherever she wants to be.
Wait a doggone minute. Unless you know the OP personally or unless she's been PMing you, you don't know anything more about the situation that the rest of us do. And we don't have enough information to know whether her husband was way out of line or not. In fact, the OP implies that he WAS seriously out of line and that his behavior was so bad it was hard for her to believe he did it.
Calm down a minute. I know no more than you about the situation, I just don't think it matters whether the husband was out of line or not. I believe his wife should support him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Apparently you and I DO have fundamentally different ideas about marriage. I believe that a husband and wife should be loyal to each other, and protective of each other generally speaking, but like every good rule, there's an exception. I do not think that spouses should enable their SO to be abusive, controlling, unreasonable, or otherwise dysfunctional. The depth of blind loyalty you are preaching is downright alarming.
If a man has all of the characteristics that you describe, you probably shouldn't marry him. If you choose to do so, I think you should be willing to accept his faults and be loyal to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Thankfully, I am married to a man who doesn't feel at all threatened when I occasionally point out to him that he's in error, or that he's being unreasonable, or unfair, or his decision is based on a faulty premise. He and I respect the other's intellect and we trust the other person's moral standard, and though sometimes it's difficult to hear, we appreciate feedback, even negative feedback, from each other. So there's no need to ever utter the words that my husband would find absolutely laughable: "Everyone should offer unwavering support of their spouse, even when they're wrong and if they're not willing to do that, they should leave the marriage." Wow.
It seems you're misunderstanding me. Talking to your spouse openly and honestly, even about their faults or mistakes, is not disloyalty. If however, your mother/friend/sister starts telling you all about your husband's faults or mistakes, even if true, I think you should defend him and not allow her to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
You never did answer my questions either, by the way. What if a spouse is abusive, or deceitful, harming others, breaking the law, etc. Do you think their spouse should offer unwavering support even then?
Yes, I think you should be supportive of him, even when he makes mistakes. That would however be a good opportunity to have one of those open and honest conversations about his faults and his need to change them.
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