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So you think that women should stay in abusive relationships? You think that if a husband is controlling, or tries to cut her off from friends or family, she should just suck it up and live like that?
I wouldn't. I think every woman needs to make that decision for herself. If a man is doing these things, it's probably a good idea to end the relationship.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
No, I'm not misunderstanding you. I am aghast at your position.
If my husband has a fault and someone in my immediate family points it out, I don't feel that I have any moral obligation to deny his wrongdoing. I may choose to say, "I'd rather not discuss this with you," or something along those lines, but I have no moral obligation to cover for his bad behavior.
I didn't say you should deny his wrongdoing. I'm saying you shouldn't allow other people to badmouth your husband, even if what they are saying is true.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
This was your answer to MY question asking if we should support husbands who are abusive, or who break the law, or who are cruel to others, etc. These aren't simply "mistakes" and I not only don't believe we should support such behaviors, I think in many cases we would be WRONG to do so.
I understand. And if you're unable to do so, then this is a relationship that you should probably no longer be a part of.
OK, didn't think it needed explaining. He gave his blessing for your husband to take you as his wife. Whether he physically walked you down the aisle or not doesn't matter. He gave you away.
Good grief! You don't know me or my father, and you don't know our beliefs about this sort of thing.
As a matter of fact, my dad and I had an indepth discussion about the whole concept of "giving a daughter away" when we were planning my wedding, and he thought it was an absurd concept in our situation. I was 42 years old, a mother of grown children, with my own career, my own home and a life very independent of my parents - I had lived independently from them since I was 19 years old.
He didn't any more "give me away" than he gave away the sun that evening as he went off to bed.
I wouldn't. I think every woman needs to make that decision for herself. If a man is doing these things, it's probably a good idea to end the relationship.
Maybe you can explain to me how one goes about "supporting one's husband whether he's right or wrong," and ending a relationship with him at the same time.
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I didn't say you should deny his wrongdoing. I'm saying you shouldn't allow other people to badmouth your husband, even if what they are saying is true.
Actually that's not what you said at first - you're rephrasing it now. What you said at first is that we should support our husband whether they are right or wrong. Period. (And that was your period.)
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I understand. And if you're unable to do so, then this is a relationship that you should probably no longer be a part of.
So - you're saying that if we're UNABLE to support our spouse if he is abusive, or breaking the law, or being cruel to others, etc then we should leave the relationship. Your implication is that we should be ABLE to do so - as if it's a weakness on our part to stand up, even to our husband, for what is right.
Not everyone is abusive or an alcoholic before marriage. Some of these traits reveal themselves over the years.
This is true. And if this person has become so bad that you can not remain loyal to him, it's probably best to leave the relationship.
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Originally Posted by PeachSalsa
My father did not walk me down the aisle, nor did anyone give me away! I, and all women, are not some property to be transferred to a new owner. This is a RIDICULOUS point of view!!
Nope. Wrong. My dad did not "give" me to anyone!
No one claimed women are property. When your father gives his blessing for your husband to take you as his wife, he is transferring his responsibility for you to him. It is no longer his obligation to provide for you, care for you and protect you. That now falls to your husband. This is precisely what is taking place at a marriage ceremony whether some of you realize it or not.
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Originally Posted by PeachSalsa
We don't know enough of the OP's situation. Maybe her DH was justified. Maybe he was being a jerk. We just don't know. IF her DH was being a jerk, she does not have to support him in his jerkiness.
I suspect some of you might think differently if the roles were reversed. Let's say you had a fight with your MIL and things got heated. Maybe you got a little out of control. You feel you were right, but your husband disagrees. How would feel if your husband sided with his mother and left you at home alone to go visit her on Thanksgiving, with your child? Be honest.
If I did this, I don't think I would be much of a husband.
This is true. And if this person has become so bad that you can not remain loyal to him, it's probably best to leave the relationship.
No one claimed women are property. When your father gives his blessing for your husband to take you as his wife, he is transferring his responsibility for you to him. It is no longer his obligation to provide for you, care for you and protect you. That now falls to your husband. This is precisely what is taking place at a marriage ceremony whether some of you realize it or not.
I suspect some of you might think differently if the roles were reversed. Let's say you had a fight with your MIL and things got heated. Maybe you got a little out of control. You feel you were right, but your husband disagrees. How would feel if your husband sided with his mother and left you at home alone to go visit her on Thanksgiving, with your child? Be honest.
If I did this, I don't think I would be much of a husband.
Regarding the first point, I was ready to walk as soon as the last child was out of high school and my job became full time. DH died before those occurred.
Second point, it was not my father's obligation to provide for me, care for me, and protect me since I turned 18. I was employed full time when I got married, was fully supporting myself, lived in my own apartment, owned my own vehicle, etc. I lived in the big, scary city all my little ol' self just fine, thank you very much.
As far as my DH taking care of me, he did provide a good living for the whole family when I stayed home to raise OUR children. However, once the alcohol started to get too attractive, I was working 3 part time jobs, plus driving kids around, plus keeping the house up. I once again took care of myself AND my kids, thank you very much.
I adore both my MIL and FIL, but if there had ever been a point where we'd had a disagreement, I would have encouraged DH to visit without me and take the kids along. Why should the kids' relationships with the grands suffer because the adults in their lives are being idiots?
Edited to clarify: I would have encouraged DH to take the kids along BEFORE he started drinking to excess. The kids knew for many years they were never to get in dad's car anytime after noon, for any reason. Dad is there to pick you up from school? Uh, no, they have "an activity" or a "teacher meeting" or a "study group" or something. Dad wants to take you somewhere? Uh, no, they have too much homework or a friend coming over or they don't feel well. The kids could say whatever they wanted, but didn't DARE get into the car when he was behind the wheel.
Clarifying another point...My DH's parents did not like his drinking any more than the rest of us, but since interventions and rehabs had failed, they were quite outspoken in their opinions. There were actually several times when the kids and I would visit the inlaws without DH. Some he knew about (birthdays and holidays), others he did not, because he was parked at the bar when we'd go.
Last edited by PeachSalsa; 11-22-2014 at 07:37 PM..
Reason: clarified a point
Maybe you can explain to me how one goes about "supporting one's husband whether he's right or wrong," and ending a relationship with him at the same time.
Please try to pay closer attention. Once again, If you're married to a man, I think you should be loyal to him and support him, even when he is wrong, as we all are sometimes. If he becomes so frequently or egregiously wrong, abusive, criminal, etc. that you don't feel you can do that, it's probably best to end the relationship.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
Actually that's not what you said at first - you're rephrasing it now. What you said at first is that we should support our husband whether they are right or wrong. Period. (And that was your period.)
This is what I said: "If however, your mother/friend/sister starts telling you all about your husband's faults or mistakes, even if true, I think you should defend him and not allow her to do that."
I think that is the same as saying "... you shouldn't allow other people to badmouth your husband, even if what they are saying is true."
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
So - you're saying that if we're UNABLE to support our spouse if he is abusive, or breaking the law, or being cruel to others, etc then we should leave the relationship. Your implication is that we should be ABLE to do so - as if it's a weakness on our part to stand up, even to our husband, for what is right.
My gosh. Amazing mindset.
I'm not implying you should be able to do anything. You would have to make that determination for yourself. If you're finding yourself in situations where you feel your obligation to stand up for what is right is greater than your obligation to be loyal to your husband, this is a relationship that you probably shouldn't be in.
When your father gives his blessing for your husband to take you as his wife, he is transferring his responsibility for you to him. It is no longer his obligation to provide for you, care for you and protect you. That now falls to your husband. This is precisely what is taking place at a marriage ceremony whether some of you realize it or not.
Is the idea of a self sufficient woman really that alien a concept to you? Has it honestly not occurred to you that many women are completely self sufficient by the time they decide to get married? I cannot for the life of me see how, at age 42, it was my dad's duty to provide for me or take care of my needs. I mean, family should look out for family but it is just as much MY responsibility to take care of my parents and protect them if necessary. If either of them decided to remarry, I wouldn't be "giving them away."
Tell you what - you can call it "giving your daughter away" if you want to but don't put that off on other people. That's your gig. It's not everyone else's gig.
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I suspect some of you might think differently if the roles were reversed. Let's say you had a fight with your MIL and things got heated. Maybe you got a little out of control. You feel you were right, but your husband disagrees. How would feel if your husband sided with his mother and left you at home alone to go visit her on Thanksgiving, with your child? Be honest.
Here's how that would play out in our home:
If my husband thought I was unfair to his mother, he would tell me. If the situation was heated enough, he might tell me at that very moment and then escort me out the door and into the car. I might not like it but I trust him to be fair and to stand up for what is right, even if I'm in the wrong.
Anyway, neither of us carries a grudge around, so I'd probably have already called his mom and apologized by that evening. But if I hadn't - if I dug my heels in and refused to apologize or help smooth things over, I would not expect him to ignore his mother on Thanksgiving. And I CERTAINLY wouldn't keep a child from their grandmother on a holiday just because the other woman and I had had a tiff! I would consider that tacky and selfish beyond words and I would never ask that of my husband or my child.
Please quit using that condescending tone with me. Women in your life may not mind it, but I find it offensive.
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Once again, If you're married to a man, I think you should be loyal to him and support him, even when he is wrong, as we all are sometimes.
I don't believe that "being loyal" means that anyone has to condone (and silence implies consent by the way) or support bad or wrong behavior.
Of course "we all make mistakes sometimes." And I'm not talking about being a shrew or a nag or being intolerant of our spouses' idiosyncracies. I'm talking about supporting wrong doing. My husband doesn't expect me to support any wrongdoings of his and I don't expect him to support my wrongdoings.
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If he becomes so frequently or egregiously wrong, abusive, criminal, etc. that you don't feel you can do that, it's probably best to end the relationship.
So it's not enough of a reason to end a relationship because a man is egregiously wrong, or abusive, or criminal - we should only end it if we "feel we can't" support him while he's doing this?
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This is what I said: "If however, your mother/friend/sister starts telling you all about your husband's faults or mistakes, even if true, I think you should defend him and not allow her to do that."
I think that is the same as saying "... you shouldn't allow other people to badmouth your husband, even if what they are saying is true."
Actually, you said this:
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I believe everyone should offer unwavering support to their spouse. Yes, even when they're wrong.
Whether or not you agree with your husband or found his actions justified is irrelevant. He is your husband and you need to respect him and support him. Period.
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