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I also think you need to take time to grieve for the kind of mother you never had, for that relationship you have been searching for all these years but will never have. Accepting that you will never have those things will help you get some perspective on whether you really need to keep your mother in your life anymore.
One thing that I am sure both my mother and I would agree on is that the relationship has always been extremely hurtful and frustrating. So why do we continue?
As for volunteering and getting outside of my head, I think that is good advice and I appreciate it. I certainly think too much, but it feels like unfortunately I am STILL trying to survive myself before I can reach out and help others. I am never too far from the Smith and Wesson plan.
I'm not saying that you should have contact with her. Like I said, I don't have contact with my dad. You have to take care of you. I hope that at some point you will feel better about the situation. You are dealt these cards, take it as a learning experience. Unlike some people that had fabulous childhoods, you've learned more than they have and have the ability to be empathetic to others, for instance.
By the way, you have it backward. You don't try to fix yourself and then help others. You volunteer and, by the act of moving beyond yourself, you get better.
Smith and Wesson? Over this? No, friend, it isn't even worth it.
I'm not trying to blow smoke because I know that you are hurting and that you have to get out of your head, step out of this and move forward right now.
OP, you've gotten all kinds of good (and not so good IMO) advice here. I think all the bases have been covered for you.
What have you decided? I hope whatever it is will give you peace and works out for the best. Good luck.
First of all, I would like to apologize for the flippant and callous title of this thread. A mother isn't something you "dump". It is just what came to mind at the time and I couldn't find a way to change the title. If anybody knows how I can do that, please let me know.
Good question Gouligann as I think this thread has run its course. I hope that maybe it will serve someone else in the future. I know I read some other threads here on CD about family estrangement and they were helpful for me.
This thread really blew up even though everybody complained about how long the original post was. Haha! So, I am EXTREMELY grateful to everybody who commented whether they were sympathetic to me or sympathetic to my mother. It is exactly what I was looking for and it has helped me just as much as the information I have gotten from my therapist.
I think the best advice I got was to keep contact with my mother with clear boundaries while accepting who she is and who I am and what the relationship is without idealizing it or expecting it to be something it is not.
That is the advice I would give to a friend as well and it is the advice I gave myself many years ago. After one of my mother's particularly nasty melt downs quite a few years ago, I decided that I would still stay in the relationship but dial it back and just fulfill my familial duties to my mother as a son since she had raised me and done what she could. I was not ungrateful and I was willing to make sure that she was always taken care of even though I felt there was no longer any way I could have a trusting relationship with her anymore.
And that worked pretty well for quite a few years. I visited for Xmas every year, gifts on Mother's Day, phone calls on Thanksgiving. When I visited, I stayed off controversial topics and was only there for 4-5 days to avoid any eventual disagreements.
But I think my mother ultimately resented that and did not like that I was setting boundaries. I think you can see that in the last email she sent to me. This caused her to distrust me and dislike me and over react to benign situations angrily. I did not and do not trust her and she did not and does not trust me. So, any kind of real relationship between us actually died many years ago, I just didn't know it. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have let her behavior hurt me and cause me to leave. I would have managed it better. If she could have done the same thing in relation to whatever I did to bother her, that would have been good as well.
But I feel there is no going back. The damage is done and there is too much to fix. My mother has shown herself to not give up a grudge easily. Also, I have no faith that even if I did get back in contact, that she would accept any boundaries. She would take offense to them. I have a real or imagined fear of my mother, so I would never sleep in her house or get in a car she is driving. I would only meet with her in public for coffee or lunch or something. I am pretty sure that none of this would be acceptable to her and she would be hurt by it. Ultimately, it would be a very superficial, fake relationship.
So I feel the only option left is for us to go our separate ways because the relationship is hurtful and frustrating for the both of us. I honestly feel and hope that we can both be more at peace without having to fit a square peg in a round hole. We have earnestly and honestly tried to make it work for decades.
If my mother ever wrote me or contacted me because she is suffering due to this estrangement, I would do whatever I could to help without putting myself in harms way. For over two years now, she has not contacted me so I hope that she is fine. She has a home, healthcare, a pension, a daughter, grandchildren, an entire family. If she finds she needs my help in some way to get over it I will oblige, but with my boundaries in place. I don't want her to feel bad. I want her to be at peace as well if possible. I want the whole mess, the whole mistake of having me to be a closed chapter. If she needs me to help with that, I will try but I don't believe there will ever be the kind of relationship she and I might have wanted or idealized. It never existed and with all this water under the bridge it never will. It will just have to be whatever it can be if anything at all.
I won't reply to any more posts here so as to let this thread go quietly into the night, but I want to thank EVERYONE for your compassion, experience and honesty.
A lot of good advice in this thread that can be taken as needed. I'm somewhere long the curve near Frostnip.
My parents were erratic, immature, unsophisticated, angry, money was a problem and yet according to the dogma of their faith they kept popping out kids that they could ill afford to feed and clothe. Add to this, mom (also from a recent immigrant family) married the "also ran" having the "wrong children that she didn't want" which added another layer of psychological misery for everyone in the household. Adding insult to injury my parents joined a religious cult in my early teens that eventually bilked them out of their life savings (such as it was) leaving them indigent, relying on social services and then adult children/family generosity.
I was the oldest child, being female I was the built in unpaid childcare, general labor and the scapegoat that never failed to mention the elephant in the room. I was the daughter that my mother (especially) did not want and she wasn't the mother that I needed. We were oil and water from the beginning. The tensions created by the aforementioned situation created an ACE score of 6 for me. Probably 4-5 for other siblings. Never heard of ACE BTW. Thanks for the link. Our childhood household was teeming with emotional and physical violence and dysfunction.
As an adult I spent a short time in therapy in my early 20s which patched me up enough to have a good career and functional marriage. After I retired a number of family incidents dislodged secrets (wrong children) that I had long intuited and I went into therapy again to help deal with that and my lingering "mommy" issues. We moved back to the state I was raised in from Alaska to help my widowed mother age in place on the family farm as I was the only member of my family in position to do so. My time in therapy helped me to be realistic about what I could expect from her and things clicked along for a while as I was able to let her nonsense roll off. My DH and I used humor to deflect her incivility. What I underestimated was Mom's willingness to up the ante to continue the pattern long established and to put herself in the driver's seat through direct and humiliating attack. Over a year ago Mom tore into me, harshly criticizing my performance as a wife at lunch in a restaurant in front of old family friends and then doubled down screaming at my husband when he called trying to smooth things over. (He was not present. It was a ladies lunch.) I sent her a letter saying that we were not apparently good for each other and that we're stepping out of the picture for a while.
I went back to therapy to deal with the present mother that was willing to go to lengths to injure me publicly at a time when all of the family friends were discussing their children (my peers that I hadn't seen in decades) in glowing loving terms. It was a lovey moment until mom had to start in. Frankly I was in total shock but also glad to have witnesses as most of her abuse was carried out in private. I am not in contact with her at present.
Like Frostnip, I understand that my mom has emotional and rational limitations. She has estrangements with both of her brothers' family and there was a great row that has never healed when money (well over 120K) was wheedled out of an elderly relative by a sibling (golden child) under mom's protection. She has also insulted some of the local townspeople by getting on her high horse over various and sundry issues like how they keep their yards creating a cold war type of climate in town. Many people greet her barely or coldly. I had planned on telling no one about this luncheon attack except one (sane) sibling that would answer for me if people started wondering where we were, why we don't visit anymore. Mom did a preemptive strike telling all of my siblings in order to draw battle lines. Sigh. I had hoped that our family ills would have ended at her generation. Now I don't know.
That said, I think that there are holes in families of recent immigrants that show up in the 2nd and 3rd generations unless the family/community is diligent about keeping customs and cultural identity together, gradually integrating which of course is completely against the current messaging of immediate assimilation. People need a central organizing force in their lives. It was lacking and my parents were left grasping at whatever bandwagon came through. It was a disaster.
I share this story because I think my mom (like yours) even in her current lashing out state is doing the best that she can given her vast unconscious pain and anger. And she has early just cause. In her unconscious state she will continue to injure me (as yours continues to injure you OP) if she can because I am the very independent direct type of person that has always irritated her and attacking makes her feel better. So I am presently not in contact with her but that may or may not be forever. I don't know. It's not an all or nothing scenario. I will definitely control whatever contact or interaction I have with her. in the future. I did tell her that she is always welcome in my home (she's better off of her turf) but I know her well enough to know that she will not visit me even though I have a brother that lives 30 miles away and she often visits him. I understand. I am the pebble in her shoe. Ironically that doesn't bother me any more.
So it is what it is. I agree with the person that said that it's important to discover and mourn the losses that you have incurred in your chaotic and unprotected life. It's always "The Holidays" that prompt those of us without a Hallmark family feel the void most poignantly. You will have to pick up and move on without our mother and your past as an organizing force and an albatross around your neck. I feel very sorry for my mother. She can't help herself and has caused so much pain and so much waste of her life as well as others. She won't change. She won't feel internal peace. I have forgiven her. She is her own punishment.
I guess my point in all of this is that you can get there. The roads are many. You may or may not be able to maintain contact in any form, depending upon your mother's pathology but you can find peace with whatever outcome.
I understand, thanks for the advice. I will do that. I was just joking around. I know it's ridiculously long, but just wanted to see what the internet thought. The internet has spoken: "Edit that Sh$T down!" Haha. Ok.
Make sure to save a copy of this. It is amazingly long, but you have a good sense of what has made you the way you are. You are a testimony to how many people can survive living with a mentally ill parent.
Do a bit more research, learn what you can going forward so that you can continue to set healthy boundaries.
I don't think protecting yourself by keeping your distance from your mom is a negative thing given your experience. I think that you have a healthy outlook despite what you've experienced growing up and that keeping your distance will work for you.
You can certainly love your mother, because she was your mother.....and not feel guilty for not trusting her emotionally or otherwise. Lose the guilt, you've done nothing to feel guilty about.
I honestly think you should edit the hell out of your post because not many people are even going to attempt that Everest of verbiage.
take it down to 3 sentences and you'll probably get some helpful responses.
Sometimes you need it to be long for yourself. Many of us who grew up in homes like these have been subconsciously groomed to over-explain because we are so used to having to defend ourselves against the "But it's your moooootheeeerrrr" crowd. Many of us make excuses for years about our parents to help shield them and when we hit the tipping point where we realize something has to give in the relationship, it's easy to try to out-explain all the potential questions in advance. I think that goes away with time.
If you posted here just to say "too long" then shame on you.
Cutting my own parents out of my life was one of the best things I could have done for myself. They may not have meant to be cruel and their actions were the results of their own dysfunctional upbringingings and undiagnosed mental health issues - but that's not *my* problem, nor *my* burden to shoulder. It's not yours either, OP.
Well I read it all. I don't have ADD, so the rest of you can SAIL!, and stop acting like a bunch of pre-schoolers. Why would you take to heart somebody with a username of Bud Lite?
It sounded like you were describing my grandma. What is it with people of Slavic descent that makes them mean? Anyway, you're much more able to control the relationship now that you're older and she's older. As people age, they get to be a bit more docile. You might even get some answers.
You've been handling yourself with much class and grace over the years, and you should be very proud of yourself. You could have given up and given in, but it sounds like you applied the "fighter" instinct you inherited from your mom in a positive, constructive fashion, which credits your success today.
I think you know how she is, and you know the pitfalls and the danger signs. I think you should resume a relationship, but not at your peril. Tell her this in a way she can understand. She knows she's toxic. Some people are very rigid and hold resentments their whole life, and portion out blame and guilt. This is like an old country way or something, because my Lithuanian side, my mom's maternal side, did this also.
I don't think you are ****ed up at all. I think you're doing very well, with maybe the exception of the estrangement between you and your mother. I see from your post it's no end of consternation for you, so end it. Just proceed with caution. Good luck and remember this: relationships are like diamonds. They're smooth, and they're rough. We don't get to pick and choose, we just learn survival skills and coping methods.
She eventually sent me the following final email a few days after I left:
“Hi, well I am wondering why you left so suddenly. It appeared we were having a good talk on the balcony and then when we had the ribs you chose to go. You said at the airpot that we both won’t agree on the “No, I didn’t receive the emails” so I also decided to move on and enjoy our visit. Obviously, it was not over for you. The “Lets not talk about it” that is. Obviously, it might not be that but a lot of other things which we have a history of. True, I was not the best mother, I admit that. You have not been the best son either. We don’t visit anymore. Even Skype doesn’t work. I think you just don’t want me as your Mom anymore. Is that true? It must be or you would have remained and we could have slept on it and talked about it calmly the next day. You chose to walk away. I think that was a poor choice. I am hurt every time you do this. I don’t know if I can handle this. I don’t want us to have this riff and it is difficult for me to understand it. I think I am going to see a shrink because it will kill me to not be at peace with this whatever happens. You know I love you because I tell you all the time and I always will. If you don’t write back, I will know your answer. So, I wish you luck and good things and I have asked God to take care of you and protect you as you journey on without me. I wish it could be different but I can’t change your thoughts and feelings about me. The past is the past and lets put that to rest and try to be happy with each day and what it brings. I have other people in my life and in some way that will give me comfort. I am not giving up on you because as a Mom having you in my arms at your birth was the most love I ever knew and that love is still with me of how I feel about you. You are a unique person and very deep to the point I can’t understand you very well. At the moment, I feel you are a lost soul but that can change if you just give love a chance. Love Mom.
Ps. I spoke to John and Aunt Louise is not doing well. I think the cancer is getting worse. I feel sad and with you and her going to of my life soon it is a real double kick in the stomach. I wish she would pass quickly so she can be at peace. John is not handling it well and suffering as well. Anyway, I thought I should tell you because we didn’t have time to discuss it and you don’t seem to really care anyhow. Ok. Bye.”
Did she ever go? I'm guessing that your mother has an untreated mental disorder.
My mother is a toxic person. About 10-15 years she did go to a shrink until she "found Jesus" who fixed all her problems. That's when she went completely off the rails.
For my whole life, my mother, her brother, his ex-wife, his current wife and their children (i.e., mom, uncle, aunts and two cousins) have all had the same attitude -- bigotry. Nothing has changed. They still live in the 1950's. Why my father, the exact opposite, married my mother I will never know. He divorced her 10 years ago. My mother and her family abhor black people, poor people, and gays. These people will actually sell their house and move to another neighborhood if a black family moves into their neighborhood. It's happened twice (to my knowledge) in just 10 years. Who in their right mind does that?
Anyway, while I don't share their political views at all, that's not something where disconnection is necessary. But guess what, that's what happened, but in the other direction... all of them, except my mother, did disconnect with me because I refuse to follow their pseudo-KKK views. The family get-togethers were as enjoyable as a combative talk show that has no commercials and never ends, so that didn't bother me at all.
About 5 years ago I decided that I had had enough of burying my feelings that had built up over 30 years, so I sent my mother an email with a list of grievances, about 10 of them. The list included giving away my dog (kids really don't like it when you do that to them ), preaching to me that I'm going to hell, forcing me to repeat the 3rd grade because I didn't get A's & B's, and I demanded an apology. She wrote back and denied everything!
Well that really pissed me off, so I called her. I yelled and screamed at her with no intention of ever stopping. The phone call ended after 45 minutes because she hung up. Good, 45 minutes of being chewed out should give you a clue, no?
Mentally ill people who are competent enough to be able to go to the doctor and take their medication (that would be my mother and the OP's mother), but REFUSE to do so, are not people that anyone (except police, etc) need deal with.
Once you've reached the conclusion that someone is toxic (i.e. not just in a bad mood today, but chronically toxic and mentally ill and apparently enjoys it), just cut them out of your life! Call it "disconnect", "dump", whatever, it doesn't matter. Move on with YOUR own life, and don't let other people try to guilt-trip you into having a relationship with someone who hates you.
edited to add:
Nothing is set in stone (for me, for the OP and for anyone else in a similar situation). If my mother called or emailed me and apologized for her wrongdoings, I would be happy to have a relationship with her, no questions asked. It's like splicing a broken tape. Snip the broken part at the beginning and end and toss it, and splice the other two ends together. It's not perfect but far better than trashing the whole tape.
Last edited by Alonso Gil; 12-19-2017 at 10:30 PM..
Sometimes you need it to be long for yourself. Many of us who grew up in homes like these have been subconsciously groomed to over-explain because we are so used to having to defend ourselves against the "But it's your moooootheeeerrrr" crowd. Many of us make excuses for years about our parents to help shield them and when we hit the tipping point where we realize something has to give in the relationship, it's easy to try to out-explain all the potential questions in advance. I think that goes away with time.
If you posted here just to say "too long" then shame on you.
Cutting my own parents out of my life was one of the best things I could have done for myself. They may not have meant to be cruel and their actions were the results of their own dysfunctional upbringingings and undiagnosed mental health issues - but that's not *my* problem, nor *my* burden to shoulder. It's not yours either, OP.
Ya, I didn’t care if it was too long. People could choose to read it or not.
You’re right though, I felt I had to give the whole complete long version if I was going to ask people’s opinions on it because these kinds of relationships are so subtle and complicated. It’s an accumulation of events over time, not just one incident.
I have come to be at peace with cutting my mother off partly because of my own feelings, partly because of the feedback I got here, partly because of my therapist and partly because of a couple of recent emails I got from my mothers family where they said they have always thought that she is abusive and disturbed. I never knew they thought that until a few days ago.
My only dilemma now is how to manage my relationship with my cousins, uncles, aunts etc. without having anything to do with my mother at the same time.
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Family
That's when she went completely off the rails.
), preaching to me that I'm going to hell, forcing me to repeat the 3rd grade because I didn't get A's & B's, and I demanded an apology. She wrote back and denied everything!
