41 National Merit Scholar Finalists from FCPS (low income, lawyers, home)

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Muffy62

TJ had 156 semi-finalists for 2012. The first posting is the list of 43 students who won the $2,500 scholarship from the NMSC for 2012. Yup, most semi-finalists become finalists but not all will get the $2,500 scholarship.

The fun bunch are the semi-finalists who didn't become finalists. Remember the kids in college who partied hearty, rarely showed up to class but aced the tests anyway? Those will be the ones these kids end up working for.

Difficult to tell from some of the names but the list looks gender balanced.

[snowdenscold]

CaliTerp07 - I'm pretty sure you are confusing semi-finalist and finalist as others have said, based on your comment about it only being PSAT score based.

Originally Posted by Darkseid

'Mostly' from TJ is an understatement. Try, OVERWHELMINGLY (33 of 41/80%) from TJ. That is amazing. Our society is more and more one where the cognitive elite are only amongst themselves. Many of the TJ kids will go on to elite universities (with other elite children) and then go on to live in neighborhoods where other graduates of elites universities live. All the while, hardly ever having to mix with average and above average children

Oh please. While I'm sure that's true for some people who may continue in academia for most of their lives, I don't think it holds true after college for many. They join churches and other community groups where the mix of people is across the board - there are only so many things to be involved in in your working life where "the cognitive elite are only amongst themselves". Furthermore, academically elite neighborhoods? There are so many factors that affect people's home decisions and neighborhoods, and your SAT scores and name on the degree just aren't that big of ones.

[spencgr]

Originally Posted by Darkseid

Many of the TJ kids will go on to elite universities (with other elite children)

Should we advocate that the "elite" go to Tier 4/ 5 schools; where they will get a sub-par education? "Elite" universities are designed to educate the "elite" students. Of course that's where they will mostly go. Even the ones that don't will likely end up at a school that is "elite" in their chosen field. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

[claremarie]

Not all TJ grads go on to "elite" schools, if by "elite" you mean a top 10 school. Most of those universities could fill their classes with smart students from prep schools and elite public magnets like TJ, but they don't, because they are also looking for the poor inner-city kids, the kids from Wyoming ranches and Indian reservations, the international full-pays, donors' kids, legacies, and recruited athletes. A considerable number of TJ kids go on to UVA, William and Mary, Virginia Tech, and other solid but not "elite" schools.

But it is true that most upper-middle class college-educated people tend to cluster together. Charles Murray's newest book "Coming Apart" is a fascinating study of this topic. Check out his quiz, which demonstrates just how insulated many of this group really are in their day-to-day lives. (It includes questions on how much time you spend with people who smoke, the names of NASCAR drivers, the occupations of your neighbors, your familiarity with mainstream popular culture, and how many of your high school friends struggled to pass their classes.)

[Darkseid]

Originally Posted by spencgr

Should we advocate that the "elite" go to Tier 4/ 5 schools; where they will get a sub-par education? "Elite" universities are designed to educate the "elite" students. Of course that's where they will mostly go. Even the ones that don't will likely end up at a school that is "elite" in their chosen field. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Not implying there is anything wrong with going to an elite school or university at all. They should. The only thing that I was getting at is that in our society the cognitive elite are mixing with the others, less and less - even after college. There have even been a couple of books written on this recently...

Furthermore, academically elite neighborhoods? There are so many factors that affect people's home decisions and neighborhoods, and your SAT scores and name on the degree just aren't that big of ones.

No, but they tend to enjoy and value the same things which in turn brings them together. If you look at the data according to zip code you will see that those of similar educational and socioeconomic status/background tend to live together. In many zip codes here in NoVa, it is very common for people to have advanced degrees. No, they don't seek each other out by cognitive ability, but they tend to find each other common values and interests.

What affect does this have down the road? Looking at this from a socioeconomic (SES) view, some 80% of those accepted into elite "Tier 1" colleges came from the top 25% of SES, while only 2% came from the bottom 25%. Now, unless one believes that only rich people are smart, then anyone can see that there is a problem here. This gap and the cultural separation is getting wider. The elite children are - by and large - growing up in solid homes while a many working class children are being raised in broken homes. This makes for different social norms.

Going back to the neighborhoods, in the end people pick on these signals when they are looking for a place to live. What is a "good neighborhood"? What do we mean by a "good school"? Do parents that have advanced degrees not tend to pay more attention to these things and endlessly go through websites to make sure their kids are in the "right" schools? This in turn tends to bring together a cognitive elite into certain neighborhoods.

[CaliTerp07]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold

CaliTerp07 - I'm pretty sure you are confusing semi-finalist and finalist as others have said, based on your comment about it only being PSAT score based.

http://www.nationalmerit.org/Merit_R&I_Leaflet.pdf

To become a semi-finalist, it's just your PSAT scores. To become a finalist, you take the SAT to confirm your scores, submit your grades, and that's all I can see. Truly, it's still heavily based on your PSAT scores. I don't remember any essays or interviews or anything when I was a NM Scholar (albeit 2004).

I just googled the press release from my senior year. In my graduating class of 500ish students, there were 8 scholarship winners, and in the county as a whole (1400 seniors) there were 20 scholarship winners.

Not saying that FFX County shouldn't be proud of the ones they have, but this district is 6-7x the size of the one I came from, and we had half as many? I just really would have expected another 30 or 40 names on that list.

[snowdenscold]

Originally Posted by CaliTerp07

http://www.nationalmerit.org/Merit_R&I_Leaflet.pdf

To become a semi-finalist, it's just your PSAT scores. To become a finalist, you take the SAT to confirm your scores, submit your grades, and that's all I can see. Truly, it's still heavily based on your PSAT scores. I don't remember any essays or interviews or anything when I was a NM Scholar (albeit 2004).

I just googled the press release from my senior year. In my graduating class of 500ish students, there were 8 scholarship winners, and in the county as a whole (1400 seniors) there were 20 scholarship winners.

Not saying that FFX County shouldn't be proud of the ones they have, but this district is 6-7x the size of the one I came from, and we had half as many? I just really would have expected another 30 or 40 names on that list.

Sorry, meant to clarify Merit Scholarship winner, not 'finalist', as I think there's a difference.

I believe it's something like 16,000 semi-finalists, 15,000 finalists (not sure why some people get cut), and then only a portion of those get the $2,500 scholarship. FCPS indicates only 2,500 students get those; the national merit site mentions 8,300, but that includes 3 types of scholarships.

So I'm not exactly sure why your district had relatively more - maybe you are including all the 3 types of scholarships (e.g. corporate) which total 8,300, while FCPS is only listing the type that total 2,500. Or maybe your district rocked. Or there was some weird state quotas going on.

[OrangeFish]

Originally Posted by CaliTerp07

To become a finalist, you take the SAT to confirm your scores, submit your grades, and that's all I can see. Truly, it's still heavily based on your PSAT scores. I don't remember any essays or interviews or anything when I was a NM Scholar (albeit 2004).

I was a National Merit Finalist a few decades before that, but I know I had to write an essay before I would receive a recommendation from the principal. We had one high school (graduating class of just under 900 students) and there were three National Merit Finalists at my school that year.

[spencgr]

Originally Posted by Darkseid

What affect does this have down the road? Looking at this from a socioeconomic (SES) view, some 80% of those accepted into elite "Tier 1" colleges came from the top 25% of SES, while only 2% came from the bottom 25%. Now, unless one believes that only rich people are smart, then anyone can see that there is a problem here. This gap and the cultural separation is getting wider. The elite children are - by and large - growing up in solid homes while a many working class children are being raised in broken homes. This makes for different social norms.

Agreed - not only rich people are smart; and it's also true that not only smart people are rich. BUT, smart people (regardless of their socio-economic beginnings) usually find a way to do well and achieve success that normally raises their level of wealth, and subsequently social "class". Then, they try and make sure their children (usually also "smart", because of inherited genes) go even further. This normally continues for generation to generation.

So, it certainly does not surprise me that studies are showing that the majority of the smart people in this society (I would venture to say any society) are located at the upper-economic levels.

[CaliTerp07]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold

So I'm not exactly sure why your district had relatively more - maybe you are including all the 3 types of scholarships (e.g. corporate) which total 8,300, while FCPS is only listing the type that total 2,500. Or maybe your district rocked. Or there was some weird state quotas going on.

THAT'S the difference! My list definitely included the corporate scholarships as well.

Thanks!