Arlington County Illegals - What in the world is going on? (visit, immigration)

[JD984]

Originally Posted by saganista

An example of equivocation. Use of a word in one context does not alter its meaning in another. Seeking to lay low and stay under the radar by avoiding as much contact with "official" society as possible will tend, among other things, to minimize those ER costs so often overstated and ballyhooed by some. But in the larger picture, this sensible tendency on the part of illegal immigrants (and those with legitimate fear of being taken for one) does not impact on the nature of either the costs or contributions of people who, but for their lack of a particular piece of paper, are no different from any other human beings on the planet.

"Similarly situated" is meanwhile a common legal phrase implying a general equality of relevant social characteristics and circumstances. It goes toward assuring that apples are considered in comparison to apples, and that when one apple is considered, it is understood to be representative of many more.


The sincerity of those who do is often brought into very serious question in a common and pronounced tendency to claim ability to divine the immigration status of individuals and groups of individuals through such means as driving past them standing on the sidewalk. Concern for actual status seems so often to be totally deprecated in favor of such factors as whether people are of certain complexions and/or linguistic practices. In other words, who do they think they are fooling.

Further, typical immigration violations are status crimes. Like driving with an expired state inspection sticker. Neither one says anything at all about what sort of person one is. Typical violators might sit next to you in church. They might coach your kid's soccer team. They almost certainly serve you in some way every day. Yet some would treat them as lepers and worse for not having a piece of paper when the system for making such a piece of paper available is totally broken and out of date. It should be obvious that some degree of rethinking is necessary here.

In prior threads, as I recall, you displayed an extraordinary degree of attention to the precise legal boundaries of jurisdictions such as the Town of Vienna and the City of Falls Church, calling areas outside their boundaries "Faux Vienna" and "Faux Falls Church." In this thread, however, legal U.S. citizenship is relegated to a formality (a mere "piece of paper"), as we are all just "human beings on the planet." An interesting change (or contrast) in perspective, to be sure.

The only argument that you've made that I find compelling is a familiar one that another poster has made more convincingly - namely, that, as a practical matter, deporting those who are currently here illegally is simply not possible, and that immigration reform is both needed and inevitable, even if it entails certain decisions that one might not make if one were starting on a blank slate.

[dkf747]

I have worked with an Asian legal immigrant, who got hired to cook in an Asian restaurant, and the boss would pay him like he pays the illegals who work for him. Cash, under the table. It took a long time to make him understand that it was wrong and he finally quit and got a job that paid him legally. All illegals are not paying taxes.

[Elizabethan1558]

This is one reason i am moving.That's all i'm going to say.Each is to thier own.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by Fern435

Your convoluted diatribe is what cannot be defended. It is spin.

I'll be happy to defend it as soon as some actual points to the contrary are raised. The above is not an instance of that.

Originally Posted by Fern435

Your sentence which states: "Illegal immigrants cost and contribute to society in ways that are indistinguishable from those that obtain with respect to others who are similarly situated" does not even make sense. Is it missing a word after "obtain" ?

The word "obtain" exists as both a transitive and intransitive verb. If you are going to play language-police, perhaps you'd better have some training first.

Originally Posted by Fern435

How's the real estate market these days?

That depends on where you are.

[katyusha25]

Originally Posted by saganista

No, I'm pointing out for instance that subsidized school lunches are not funded based on immigration status, but on income levels. All children meeting those income standards are covered. Even if a blanket general immigration amnesty were to be proclaimed to take effect tomorrow, the same children would be receiving the same benefits at the same cost. There would not be one penny saved, hence there cannot be one penny of current cost that is actually the result of anyone's being illegal.


Property taxes, like maintenance and utilities, are passed on directly to renters. Renters pay them to no less an extent than do homeowners. But they don't get the tax deduction. The landlord keeps that.


Everyone uses taxpayer money regardless of where they are.

a) I get what you're pointing out, but I'm saying that you're bring up all these other non-relevant things, when someone asked how illegals who rent pay property taxes. They don't. You can't argue that, no matter what.

b) Virginia may be sort of funky in that way, but I'm not aware that utilities are considered a property tax. The land and the value of a house that you own is what's paid for in a property tax.

c) Not when we're talking about Los Angeles vs. Arlington. I'm talking about taxes paid by county residents as opposed to federal taxes. But my point still is, you said, "what does the LA Times know about Arlington?" (not verbatim. oh crap, was that you? If it wasn't, sorry!)) and I said it doesn't matter because tax payers pay for illegals across the board (county or federal).

[saganista]

Originally Posted by Fern435

Saganista attempts to conjure up an illusion that anyone wanting immigration laws enforced subjects illegal immigrants to "scorn and derision." That is a lie.

It's hardly an illusion and it's conjured up not by me, but by those whose attitudes and behaviors bring the notion into being.

[Elizabethan1558]

Amen Fern,
some people don't want to face the truth.

[jwilson1978]

Originally Posted by meatkins

The article is complete BS and full of nonsense propaganda. All they did was 'estimate' the amount of money illegal immigrants contribute to our country and they actually have no actual factual backing of these numbers. Anybody can give an estimate, but does that make they estimate correct? How can they prove those numbers to be accurate? Come on since you're the statistics guy, why don't you give me hardcore statistics?

Of course it's an estimate, do you think they marked down "illegal immigrant" under occupation on their tax return? However, if you would like statistics, ask and you shall receive. There is a little known program within the Social Security Administration called the Earnings Suspense File. They basically throw all of the money from mismatched social security numbers into one pot. I cannot say that all of this money is from illegal immigrants, but if illegals are using incorrect socials or if multiple people are using the same SSN, then the money ends up here. Congressional Testimony - June 7, 2007 (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/oig/communications/testimony_speeches/06072007testimony.htm - broken link)
It was worth $586 billion in 2006, which I'm sure has grown from there. This money has been sitting there and should be put to good use so that we can fund our own retirement.

This is just social security and in no way represents Federal, State, or Medicare payments. Please tell me that this number isn't absolutely shocking!

[saganista]

Originally Posted by JEB77

In prior threads, as I recall, you displayed an extraordinary degree of attention to the precise legal boundaries of jurisdictions such as the Town of Vienna and the City of Falls Church, calling areas outside their boundaries "Faux Vienna" and "Faux Falls Church." In this thread, however, legal U.S. citizenship is relegated to a formality (a mere "piece of paper"), as we are all just "human beings on the planet." An interesting change (or contrast) in perspective, to be sure.

On the one hand, whether one actually lives within the quite particularly defined boundaries of the City of Falls Church or the Town of Vienna has immediate, tangible, and particularly to those not familiar with the area, perhaps quite surprising implications. Making those seeking information about this area aware of the fact that in these two cases in particular, mailing address does not necessarily establish where one actually lives is only to provide them with important information.

On the other hand, and as has been pointed out, possession of this mere piece of paper does not imply anything at all. Many thoroughly upstanding people do not have such a piece of paper. Many utterly unredeemable villains do.

Originally Posted by JEB77

The only argument that you've made that I find compelling is a familiar one that another poster has made more convincingly - namely, that, as a practical matter, deporting those who are currently here illegally is simply not possible, and that immigration reform is both needed and inevitable, even if it entails certain decisions that one might not make if one were starting on a blank slate.

Well, I've not previously mentioned the practicality of deportation, and would you like to guess how many people are looking to you to define what is or is not compelling? Various of the points raised in this thread, whether last March or more recently and whether actually related to Arlington or not, are examples of an extremely narrow and uninformed viewpoint. Hence, my original post...

Whether legal or illegal, immigrants comprise a vital and productive part of our economy and culture. I'm not sure that the same could always be said for intolerant, nativist wing-nuts.

Apparently some believe that it should not be allowed for such things to be said around here.

[JD984]

Originally Posted by saganista

On the one hand, whether one actually lives within the quite particularly defined boundaries of the City of Falls Church or the Town of Vienna has immediate, tangible, and particularly to those not familiar with the area, perhaps quite surprising implications. Making those seeking information about this area aware of the fact that in these two cases in particular, mailing address does not necessarily establish where one actually lives is only to provide them with important information.

On the other hand, and as has been pointed out, possession of this mere piece of paper does not imply anything at all. Many thoroughly upstanding people do not have such a piece of paper. Many utterly unredeemable villains do.

If you had any perspective, you'd realize that this reads like complete self-parody. Whether one's neighbors are or are not legal residents of the country is much ado about nothing, but whether one resides on Cottage Street SE or Cottage Street, or Washington Street rather than Washington Boulevard, is of great and enormous significance! Boundaries and borders matter, except when they don't. Of course! Keep this stuff up, and the Tea Party will enlist you as a recruiter.

People who are in the country illegally may have many positive qualities, but they are not "throughly upstanding." Get real - no one as concerned as you are with legalities and definitions (i.e., what exactly qualifies as a "strip mall") would enter another country illegally or overstay your privileges. Of course many criminals are U.S. citizens, but that adds little to the debate.

Originally Posted by saganista

Well, I've not previously mentioned the practicality of deportation, and would you like to guess how many people are looking to you to define what is or is not compelling? Various of the points raised in this thread, whether last March or more recently and whether actually related to Arlington or not, are examples of an extremely narrow and uninformed viewpoint. Hence, my original post...

I probably read too much into one of your prior posts and gave it more credit than it deserved.