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Well, Hawaii is apparently still nearly 20% closer to Asia, but I see what you mean about not being worth the stop. Does that mean electronics are first shipped to Cali, and then back to Hawaii? If so, seems they would be more expensive than mainland sets.
Yes, just about everthing shipped to California - then shipped to Hawaii. Some stores are able to hold the prices the same as the mainland and others there is a markup.
Well, we could do a mainland average, though I know that would be of limited utility. The COL calculators would definitely be helpful.
But it appears, if your city is at all representative, that Hawaii is less than twice as expensive as the mainland overall. Good start.
Finally, I don't think we have to worry about the wage disparity -- people will presumably have a specific job and salary in mind when considering the move, and can make the calculations/comparisons based on that.
I would disagree, wage disparity matters a great deal when trying to do a useful comparison. How can you have a salary in mind and assume you will get that salary? Jobs pay what they pay and you only have the skills that you have... you can't just pick some job that pays $100k if your qualifications are worth $35k. If you are trying to compare costs then you have to take any pay cut / increase for comparable work into consideration.
If you make $50k for a job in some "mainland" city and only make $40k for the same job in Honolulu plus have to pay 2x the rent, 20% more for food, more income taxes, general excise tax, more for utilities, etc... it makes a huge difference in the amount of money you actually have at your disposal to pay those bills.
Say it costs $1200 a month to scrape by in some "mainland" city and you make $3000 after taxes there but in Honolulu it takes $2000 a month to scrape by and you make $2500 after taxes for a comparable job. Although Honolulu is technically not 2x as expensive as the fictitious "mainland" city since ($2000/$1200) = 1.67x, you would have ($1800/$500) = 3.6x the disposable income for things like car repairs, health issues, savings, leisure activities, travel, etc... So what are you trying to measure? How much it costs to scape by someplace or how much it actually costs you (net) to live someplace? Those are two different things.
95% of the time moving to Hawaii is a BAD financial decision. That is not to say that it is a bad move 95% of the time, Hawaii offers lots of amenities that can't be found in other cities and those have value too... but there are almost always negative financial trade offs either in the short term or the long term because of the high cost of living, low wages, and limited job market in Hawaii. People who thrive there do so because they love it and can't see living anywhere else, not because it makes financial sense. Indianapolis makes financial sense, not Honolulu.
We can certainly agree to disagree, but I think that trying to develop some metric called "average mainland" is about as useful as talking about average gas mileage of all cars when I drive a Prius and live 5 miles from work and you drive a Hummer and have a 30 mile commute. You really have to look at the individual details to make an informed decision about monthly fuel costs in this scenario. Same thing holds true when comparing locations.
95% of the time moving to Hawaii is a BAD financial decision. That is not to say that it is a bad move 95% of the time, Hawaii offers lots of amenities that can't be found in other cities and those have value too... but there are almost always negative financial trade offs either in the short term or the long term because of the high cost of living, low wages, and limited job market in Hawaii. People who thrive there do so because they love it and can't see living anywhere else, not because it makes financial sense. Indianapolis makes financial sense, not Honolulu.
We can certainly agree to disagree, but I think that trying to develop some metric called "average mainland" is about as useful as talking about average gas mileage of all cars when I drive a Prius and live 5 miles from work and you drive a Hummer and have a 30 mile commute. You really have to look at the individual details to make an informed decision about monthly fuel costs in this scenario. Same thing holds true when comparing locations.
So very true. I like your comment on "thriving here and do so .. love it..." I do wrestle with returning to the mainland ALL THE TIME. I was on the bus heading from downtown to Ala Moana today, and several busses were stopped on Punchbowl. Next thing this bus driver gets out of his bus, runs towards a woman an hands her an umbrella she left on the bus, she gives him a nice hug and big kiss on the cheek in that friendly Hawaii way of doing it. Just one little act that I see here and there that remind me of how different Hawaii can be.
Alex7777, I don't think it's that simple to say it's 2x higher than the mainland, that is entirely too vague and there are variations all over the place. I dislike those COL matrix saying if you make this amount in this city, you will need to make this amount.,,,,." I can only describe my experience and for those of you who feel a need to criticize , fine. I wouldnt want to be you too. lol.
I made almost half when I moved here from what I made in San Francisco for an equivalent job (and that still bugs me to this day.. so keep that in mind). In SF, I was a marketing coordinator/graphics person for Bank of America in their global foreign exchange division and made over 45k under 50k., During the crap meltdown plus our merger with an east coast bank, I was laid off and did volunteer work in France, stayed with a friend in NYC to help with her newborn, than ended up in Honolulu where I always wanted to try. I came here and I lived in a roomate share in a 2 bedroom house on the other side of the freeway close to downtown. Good neighborhood. I ate out here and there and shopped at safeway. I did the same exact thing in SF . I dont think my lifestyle changed very much at all. In SF I took a lot of cabs, bought magazines and books all the time. ordered from Waiters on Wheels a few times a week. Unnecessary expenses for Honolulu for ME. I's just how one spends their money. You learn to find things cheaper. I was at Ala Moana today and had lunch at Genki Sushi. Paid about $12.00. Was a treat. Then I went to Longs and found my favorite Dennisons chili for $1.99 a can. Dinner for $2.00!! Or I ll go to the food court and at this one place, the small salad bar is $4.50. It fits quite a lot in that container and I especially pac on the mac salad. Excellent dinner and healthy and filling for under $5.00. Im not a petite guy too. OR I could spent $9.50 on some nachos at the mexican stand there. Choices and how you spend. Locals here learn to shop at Foodland, or Safeway and hit the sales. I always see Haagan Dazs on sale at foodland with Maikai card for 2/$7.00 or $3.50 each. WAY lower than my corner store price of $5,55. I like going to Cho Dang on Piikoi where they have an all day special of Sundoobu stew, with the typical korean little side dishes and big bowl rice for $4.99! I could go to another Korean restaurant and pay twice I guess, and sometimes I do.
People use Longs here to buy food that goes on sale., The grocery stores have sales all the time. That is why its sort of unique to Hawaii that you go in and see the dairy section BARE some days as there was a sale on items. Or you'll see patches of empty where there was a run on some item and everbody snapped them up. I remember getting 2 dozen eggs on some days for $3.00. You learn to buy things that are on sale if that is what you want and need to do. Some weeks I would not buy hillshire farms sausages as they were twice as expensive that day vs. the day before. Bread can be expensive but buy it on sale and it's cheaper. lol. Coincidentally, this very popular Chnatown vegetable vendor sells bananas from Central America, so not all fruits and vegetables come from Hawaii.
I think it's great to get an idea of prices and costs. I am fearful of saying some people overthink things, because one should be aware and armed with info, but sometimes it's hard to plan for every little detail. Sometimes you have to roll with the ups and downs and figure things out as you go along.
That being said, I found it funny, a friend of mine who lives in Ewa Beach posted on her facebook that her electric bill was higher:
Quote:
I can't believe our electricity bill is $364 (for last month). It shot up $100 from those stinkin surcharges. Oy, and just when the summer heat starts too - hard to limit the a/c.
I don't have to deal with electricity bills, but I know many do.
Last edited by Manarii_HNL; 06-15-2012 at 05:21 AM..
I would disagree, wage disparity matters a great deal when trying to do a useful comparison. How can you have a salary in mind and assume you will get that salary? Jobs pay what they pay and you only have the skills that you have... you can't just pick some job that pays $100k if your qualifications are worth $35k. If you are trying to compare costs then you have to take any pay cut / increase for comparable work into consideration.
If you make $50k for a job in some "mainland" city and only make $40k for the same job in Honolulu plus have to pay 2x the rent, 20% more for food, more income taxes, general excise tax, more for utilities, etc... it makes a huge difference in the amount of money you actually have at your disposal to pay those bills.
Say it costs $1200 a month to scrape by in some "mainland" city and you make $3000 after taxes there but in Honolulu it takes $2000 a month to scrape by and you make $2500 after taxes for a comparable job. Although Honolulu is technically not 2x as expensive as the fictitious "mainland" city since ($2000/$1200) = 1.67x, you would have ($1800/$500) = 3.6x the disposable income for things like car repairs, health issues, savings, leisure activities, travel, etc... So what are you trying to measure? How much it costs to scape by someplace or how much it actually costs you (net) to live someplace? Those are two different things.
95% of the time moving to Hawaii is a BAD financial decision. That is not to say that it is a bad move 95% of the time, Hawaii offers lots of amenities that can't be found in other cities and those have value too... but there are almost always negative financial trade offs either in the short term or the long term because of the high cost of living, low wages, and limited job market in Hawaii. People who thrive there do so because they love it and can't see living anywhere else, not because it makes financial sense. Indianapolis makes financial sense, not Honolulu.
We can certainly agree to disagree, but I think that trying to develop some metric called "average mainland" is about as useful as talking about average gas mileage of all cars when I drive a Prius and live 5 miles from work and you drive a Hummer and have a 30 mile commute. You really have to look at the individual details to make an informed decision about monthly fuel costs in this scenario. Same thing holds true when comparing locations.
My apologies, poor word choice. What I meant is that most people (hopefully) will have a job lined up, at a specific salary, when considering this decision. (At least, they really should, and that's who I'm aiming this discussion at.) Once someone has a specific job/salary/income lined up, they can then begin trying to determine what that will mean in Hawaii relative to their home town.
I understand there will be variation, but it would appear that if one starts off with the 2x calculator, they'll at least have a rough shorthand of the difference. That should presumably cover the difference in gas costs, food costs, rent costs, excise taxes, etc. And if someone asks "Will $50K be enough for me to live on?", you could respond by asking them if they'd be comfortable on $25K in a typical mid-size mainland town. I know from my own life experience that I would be, I can't speak for anyone else. But they'd at least then have some frame of reference. (And if the cost differential is not quite that great, then they have some pleasantly unexpected cushion to work with.)
It seems pretty clear that Hawaii is not usually a good financial decision -- I don't think anyone disputes that. It is in fact a bad financial decision for most. However, so is marriage, for many/most primary bread-winners. And children are a HORRIBLE financial decision in almost all respects. So clearly, we often make decisions based on non-financial criteria. Given the higher prices and generally lower wages, moving to Hawaii is a decision that requires careful thought. The 2x figure is simply presented as a way to force people to realize, very starkly, the drastic difference in COL. It may be overstated, but I think people can agree that's better than understating the difference. And it will encourage people to research the precise differences more carefully, to ensure it's viable for them.
But bottom line, if someone falls in love with Hawaii, has a chance to make $70K there, and knows they'd be fine with $35K on the mainland, then the 2x figure will let them know it's feasible to at least try. Conversely, if someone has a job offer for $30K, and knows they'd need at least $25K to be comfortable on the mainland, then they'd know they have some serious thinking to do.
And someone without a job lined up at all would have to understand that things are roughly twice as expensive, with jobs generally paying less.
Ultimately, it seems the most important thing for anyone is to have a return ticket, just in case, along with enough savings to start back up on the mainland if necessary. (Especially for people with no job lined up in Hawaii.)
I understand the 2x figure may be overstated vs. many/most mainland locations, but the real point again is simply to throw the COL difference into stark contrast. It would likely discourage many of the more ambivalent transplants, who are likely the ones who complain the most, and quickly leave. It would be a good reality check for those in the middle, who are interested in moving, but not sure. But I doubt it will unduly discourage anyone who really wants to live in Hawaii for the intangibles offered. It would again simply encourage more careful research on costs, etc.
If someone thinks 1/3 more than mainland would be a better shorthand, that's fine. But I find that most people's brains are lazy (including my own), and the simpler you make things, the easier it is to grasp.
(Sorry for the lengthy post. To summarize more briefly:
The 2x shorthand is most useful for those who already have a specific job/salary lined up. While it likely overstates the actual difference in COL, and ignores mainland variation, it is helpful for several reasons. First, it is easy to understand and apply. Second, it forces people to quickly understand the large difference in Hawaii COL. Third, it thereby discourages those who aren't truly in love with Hawaii, and unwilling to sacrifice somewhat to live there. (And who wants them in Hawaii anyway? They'd just be grumbling and unpleasant.) And finally, it's unlikely to truly discourage those who really love Hawaii, and are in fact willing to sacrifice. It simply encourages them to do more careful research, and be more prepared when they move. Which is always a good thing.
For that reason, I think it would be a useful starting point for those considering the move, as a way of quickly throwing things in stark perspective. To the extent it's overstated, that just means that people will end up in better shape than they expected, which is always a good thing. And to the extent it discourages anyone from moving, that's probably a good thing. No one wants the Islands any more crowded, and those easily discouraged probably don't have the necessary love/spirit needed anyway. After all, how many threads do we see complaining that people are overestimating the difficulties of an Island move, and that the Islands need more transplants/development?
(Sorry for the lengthy post. To summarize more briefly:
The 2x shorthand is most useful for those who already have a specific job/salary lined up. While it likely overstates the actual difference in COL, and ignores mainland variation, it is helpful for several reasons. First, it is easy to understand and apply. Second, it forces people to quickly understand the large difference in Hawaii COL. Third, it thereby discourages those who aren't truly in love with Hawaii, and unwilling to sacrifice somewhat to live there. (And who wants them in Hawaii anyway? They'd just be grumbling and unpleasant.) And finally, it's unlikely to truly discourage those who really love Hawaii, and are in fact willing to sacrifice. It simply encourages them to do more careful research, and be more prepared when they move. Which is always a good thing.
For that reason, I think it would be a useful starting point for those considering the move, as a way of quickly throwing things in stark perspective. To the extent it's overstated, that just means that people will end up in better shape than they expected, which is always a good thing. And to the extent it discourages anyone from moving, that's probably a good thing. No one wants the Islands any more crowded, and those easily discouraged probably don't have the necessary love/spirit needed anyway. After all, how many threads do we see complaining that people are overestimating the difficulties of an Island move, and that the Islands need more transplants/development?
You seem to be applying logic about a move to Hawaii and if you read the threads long enough - logic just doesn't seem to apply.
Hawaii seems to draw people like Salmon - there is no logic most of the time.
The funniest posts are the dreamers especially those who haven't been here. I mean - where is the vision coming from from, Hawaii Five O? Magnum PI? Then they get here and sit in the H1 traffic, live in the 700 sq ft apartment, have no job (or 2-3 jobs), - the honeymoon ends, they get miserable and move back. Many get egged on by posters who don't even live here that they should move.
Or, it isn't a dreamer - it is the frugal poster. I'm willing to downsize. I'm willing to have less. It won't bother me to change my lifestyle. I need a change. The funny thing about the frugal poster - they didn't live the frugal lifestyle on the mainland - and all of a sudden they want that lifestyle in Hawaii. Once the frugal lifestyle honeymoon ends - most move back.
Of course it works out for some in dire situations - we've got a poster lately almost bragging about having no savings in his 40's, being unemployed, living in cockroach place after cockroach place, having a place currently with no kitchen, but as he likes to say - I'm in Hawaii. My advice for him - dude, your posts should be required reading - most people don't want to live that way despite you thinking that they do.
I've provided enough links in the past that Hawaii loses more people to migration than it brings in. Whether that be rock fever (it is real), the dream fell flat, you can't live frugal, you never got a job, you spend more than you make - the list goes on.
Yeah, it is more expensive and you make less money. That works for some people, myself included. I planned over 10 years for this move. I put it a little different - your move to Oahu may completely financially wipe you out between moving here - living here - and moving back. Your future may be in jeopardy depending on how long it takes you to recover from this dream.
LOL Vipe, you so funny brah. I read that guys posts too, but it sounds like you are realllly skewing his experiences and way exaggerating the life he leads when it sounds like it is really how many live on this island. Perfectly happy and getting along and getting by, I also don't recall him saying he was broke and had no savings. He could have thousands saved in a 401(k) or personal savings, but it is also no secret that the average American does not have a proper savings strategy. So why comment on what you do not know to be sure? It sounds like you are on the verge of attacking someone who is challenging your "up that income by 50% to live here" responses. lol. But I do not recall him giving his advice to those with children, those looking for a school, those earning a high income looking for places to live in Kailua or Portlock. Just to the average person wanting to move here and wondering 'if' they can get by... I rather like his advice!! Also, I do think he said he was just recently unemployed and looking. If anybody lives anywhere on the island and or on the mainland, surely you all must know someone who had been laid off at some point. Unemployment insurance is just something that is available to those in need when it counts most. Surely you are benevolent enough to not criticize someone laid off by no fault of their own. That would make you cruel and unkind. I myself too was laid off and collecting UI for a few weeks (3.5 to be exact), but am happy to report am back on the job and earning money. But it's nice to know, in these uncertain times, that I've worked nonstop pretty much from 2004 and have earned the right to collect unemployment. And have no shame in doing so if the need arises again.
I too do not like roaches, but here on the island, its hard to avoid them, especially in these older clapboard apartments that are so prevalent on the island, I have friends in Makiki, Wakiki, Moilili et al and roaches are just sometimes unavoidable. (Note to readers: Those Hoy Hoy Traps are EXCELLENT and will literally leave you roach free). Cleanliness is not always the prevalent issue here.. I guess if we lived in a high rise apartment building in 'off Chinatown' (I'm guess those apts on Beretania Street or maybe Exec Center?), people like you may probably be more immune to that aspect of island living (but for the other 90% of us....). You also shared with us that you found Oahu busses to be hot and crowded and don't take them, so you probably don't see little bugs on there like us normal island workers do. It s a tropical island and comes with so many interesting things.
I want to point out to you potential bus riders, i've never had one crawl up on me, but it's unavoidable not to see a roach (but it is not common) on a bus that has been sitting and traveling for hours in this climate. It is also unavoidable to not see them in restaurants as many restaurants have front doors, and bugs can and do come in from the street. I've seen it in many a good restaurant. Funny thing too, are the geckos. We used to find dead and dried up geckos behind desks in our downtown high rise office. I used to wonder how the heck they go up to the 19th floor!!)
Living in Hawaii has its challenges and rewards, but you dont have to earn a lot to enjoy your life here. If that is how you choose to do so. I had a fabulous lunch today of some vietnamese Hu Tieu Nam Vang soup at one of my favorite places "99 Cent Cafe" which specializes in vietamese soups on N. King & Kekauulike. And tonight Im meeting a friend and shopping a bit at Costco on Iwilei, and having some inexpensive and delicious Pizza and those raspberry shakes at their outside food stand ( go there virtually ANY time of the day and see a long long line of locals just like myself who are looking to have a good inexpensive meal).. (truly lots of people go there to enjoy), then walking across the street to the Dole Cannery theatre to catch a flick. Life can be good!!!
I also don't recall him saying he was broke and had no savings.
I must have read the post wrong - so I took a look at it again - Not broke and have savings - huh??? "I look back now and think My goodness, I should have had some good extra cash to save" "which destroyed me fnancially" "I was dying and could not save enough to move out" "To be honest, I have never really recouped that period between 2005 and 2009" "doing "okay" surving" "Im jsut at an age where I don't want to struggle as much" "And I will be the firsst to admit, maybe I could have managed my finances better" "I cannot entertain in my little chinatown room. I"m too embarrassed to be honest" "But I have had times where I could not afford a good pair of shoes when I needed them."
And by the way - 90% of the people here aren't dealing with cockroach infestation.
You seem to be applying logic about a move to Hawaii and if you read the threads long enough - logic just doesn't seem to apply.
Hawaii seems to draw people like Salmon - there is no logic most of the time.
The funniest posts are the dreamers especially those who haven't been here. I mean - where is the vision coming from from, Hawaii Five O? Magnum PI? Then they get here and sit in the H1 traffic, live in the 700 sq ft apartment, have no job (or 2-3 jobs), - the honeymoon ends, they get miserable and move back. Many get egged on by posters who don't even live here that they should move.
Or, it isn't a dreamer - it is the frugal poster. I'm willing to downsize. I'm willing to have less. It won't bother me to change my lifestyle. I need a change. The funny thing about the frugal poster - they didn't live the frugal lifestyle on the mainland - and all of a sudden they want that lifestyle in Hawaii. Once the frugal lifestyle honeymoon ends - most move back.
Of course it works out for some in dire situations - we've got a poster lately almost bragging about having no savings in his 40's, being unemployed, living in cockroach place after cockroach place, having a place currently with no kitchen, but as he likes to say - I'm in Hawaii. My advice for him - dude, your posts should be required reading - most people don't want to live that way despite you thinking that they do.
I've provided enough links in the past that Hawaii loses more people to migration than it brings in. Whether that be rock fever (it is real), the dream fell flat, you can't live frugal, you never got a job, you spend more than you make - the list goes on.
Yeah, it is more expensive and you make less money. That works for some people, myself included. I planned over 10 years for this move. I put it a little different - your move to Oahu may completely financially wipe you out between moving here - living here - and moving back. Your future may be in jeopardy depending on how long it takes you to recover from this dream.
I'm sure there are some/many potential transplants who are completely acting on emotion. I suspect most who post on here have at least a little logic involved, or they wouldn't bother asking. In either event, I think putting it in stark, 2x terms will force anyone thinking at all to think even more carefully. Which is probably a good thing.
If someone has a job set up, isn't borrowing for the move, understands the COL difference, etc., I don't think it's going to kill them financially to try it. (Obviously, they should at least visit first.) I suspect those who really get wiped out are those who come with no job, no understanding of the COL, and then borrow heavily to stay afloat for a couple years.
Regarding the struggling poster you reference -- I don't think he's saying that lifestyle is anyone else's dream, just that he's making it on $15/hr temping. And it's apparently enough for him.
And, ultimately that's what it's apparently about. For some, living in Hawaii -- like living in NYC or SF -- is worth the major financial burden it includes, including smaller housing, less discretionary income, etc. For most, it apparently isn't. As long as you visit first, have a job lined up, have some savings, understand the COL, and don't borrow to finance your stay, you presumably won't be destroyed by the experience. Just good that prospective transplants have this forum to review to get a practical overview.
Being from the similarly expensive NYC metro/Southwest CT area, I'm often amazed at how many people casually dismiss Hawaii (Honolulu) as so expensive... Yet these same people unabashedly pay to live here. I've found that save for food, expenses are comparable to here. I was on Oahu last month and gas was cheaper than here. Not by much, but still cheaper.
Can someone briefly explain the high electricity prices to me? I'm wondering how serious this difference is for me. I never use air conditioning and when I'm not home, the fridge is the only thing sucking juice. Even when I am home - laptop, one or two lights and the TV is mostly all I use.
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Also, I do think he said he was just recently unemployed and looking. If anybody lives anywhere on the island and or on the mainland, surely you all must know someone who had been laid off at some point. Unemployment insurance is just something that is available to those in need when it counts most. Surely you are benevolent enough to not criticize someone laid off by no fault of their own. That would make you cruel and unkind. I myself too was laid off and collecting UI for a few weeks (3.5 to be exact), but am happy to report am back on the job and earning money. 
But it's nice to know, in these uncertain times, that I've worked nonstop pretty much from 2004 and have earned the right to collect unemployment. And have no shame in doing so if the need arises again. 
