[Rubi3]

I like the looks of Guthrie and all I know about Perkins is a family there owns 2 pieces of my art which they bought several years ago. When I had a one woman show at the OCU gallery, they even loaned me those pieces to have in the exhibit. So, in a way, I know more about Perkins than about Guthrie, except I've been through Guthrie many times.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by nevadamamabear1972

I LOVE the railway, grew up near one and the sound brings back wonderful memories After a quick visit to Central Oklahoma I think I've now narrowed my choice down to Guthrie or Perkins. The schools seem nice and the atmosphere is family like. Out of the two which would be your choice & why, if I may ask.

Thank you for all the information I truly appreciate it,

Kristen

Perkins is obviously way smaller and is basically a suburb of Stillwater and a lot longer trip to OKC than Guthrie. I would think the schools might be better in Perkins simply because Guthrie has some poverty and Perkins really doesn't to any real extent.

But I don't think Guthrie is a bad school.

To me it would be a matter of size of community and school vs. access to OKC and Edmond vs. what's available in Stillwater.

[StillwaterTownie]

Perkins is cool for being connected to Stillwater with a 5 lane highway. For entertainment, Perkins has a casino. Perkins has 4 lane access most of the way to I-35 via Highway 33. It's in good condition.

[nevadamamabear1972]

Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie

Perkins is cool for being connected to Stillwater with a 5 lane highway. For entertainment, Perkins has a casino. Perkins has 4 lane access most of the way to I-35 via Highway 33. It's in good condition.

Thank you! Four lane access definitely is a plus! I'm from Nevada and I won't be stepping foot in a casino in OK, ha ha. I want to be out in the woods and away from casino :roll eyes:

[happyjack70]

Originally Posted by linicx

HappyJack,

You might like Grove, OK. It is in NE OK in the foothills of the Ozark Mountains on Grand Lake. So you have tall cliffs, high rolling hills, over 65,000 surface acres of water, with humidity and an bountiful abundance of flora and fauna in the summer. But you also have a political climate that while it votes red nationally, it also votes blue locally. I lived there for nearly 30 years. And it has been a Top 5 ranked retirement place for years due to the COL and other factors.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that proper insulation, windows, along with the proper size/installation of HVAC/humidicier will make a big difference in home comfort while controlling the humidity in the home, and overall summer utility costs. When I did these simple things I cut $150 monthly from my summer bills, and $100 from the heating costs. The house is much easier to heat and cool, and it also maintains a more constant temperature throughout with no heat or cooling - even with windows closed.

I hate humidity, but I loved NE OK and all the things it offered, plus it wasn't that far from mountains where the air was more dry.

Thanks Linicx, from my laptop, (until I finally drive up there ) I use Google maps to drive down a lot of the streets of towns and small cities I like in Ok. Visiting vicariously. I am looking for a fixup on the cheap. So price is probably my first consideration. Some of these real estate sites I have been to show a graph of the population projections for the next five years. Towns like Altus, Vinita, Pawhuska, and even Ponca City show a decline over the next 4-5 years. I would assume it has to do with local industry/manufacturing layoffs, or worse yet, closings. A town called Frederick showed a decrease of 50% I think. This is from the Remax site, and I believe they get their info from the census folks. I don't care much for growth, but every town or city needs it if they want better services. My job use to depend on it. Still does, if I plan to flip a fixup. Grove looks like it is growing very rapidly. The nicest looking building I could see with my limited view was an art gallery on the corner of Main and ? Light colored stone w/ dark green something. Shutters maybe. Grove would be a logical choice, but.......... I don't mean to offend, but it looks a lot like a good many of the southwest cities I have visited. Uncontrolled growth might be a bit harsh. Call it lack of foresight when it comes to planning and zoning. As a builder, I have had to deal with those folks for over 35 years. They are a pain, albeit a necessary one.What I do like about the Grove area is the rural. I have seen a lot of fixups near water. Which would be wonderful all by itself. But alas, I wouldn't be able to walk down the street and admire all the cool old houses. Like in Guthrie. The grass is always greener. Living rural has it's advantages. I have for the last 25 years outside a small town north of Tucson. Lots of scorpions and rattlesnakes. I would kill at least one rattler a year. And get stung by a scorpion at least once a year. I doubt you have scorpions, but I'll bet you have rattlers in the rural areas. I have had a belly full of those&^%$#@"s. So it is back to town life for this boy. Nothing like the sound of a rattlesnake to scare the living daylight of you. My dog just got bit by one. Vet bill wasn't too bad. And they usually survive the bite, but just the same. I have lived down here for over 45 years. Dry heat they say. When it is over 100 it is brutal. Folks say the dry heat is better. Maybe I"ll welcome the humidity. Green grass and big trees and old houses. You mentioned that Grove was one of the top ranked retirement areas due to the COL and other factors. What is COL ? And I don't see too many Indian Reservations on the map. Whereas in Az. there are lots of them with their own government. Police, Fire, Council, etc. They are within their own nation. Of sorts. FBI gets called in for the heavy stuff. So why in Ok. it appears that a casino is built in a lot of towns ? For instance, what tribe is the big casino of Durant in ? Is the casino itself on res land ? I don't see boundaries on my Google map, so maybe it is just a bad map. Can anyone out there explain the difference between Ok. Indian nations and Az. and N.M.? Or is there no real difference ? Just different Tribes ? Why is the Seminole Nation headquarters located in Ok. and not Florida ? Were they part of the Trail of Tears exodus ? Many Thanks, John

[Skip OK]

happyjack70,

Let me try to answer some of you questions, particularly concerning Indian tribes.

First, the Seminoles were one of the Five Civilized Tribes that were subject to the Trail of Tears. They resisted more than most (check out the Seminole War) and many of them escaped into the Everglades, just as many Cherokee escaped into the Smoky Mountains. Thus, there is a Seminole Tribe living in Florida and another in Oklahoma, and there is a Cherokee Tribe in North Carolina and another one in Oklahoma.

Second, there are no Indian Reservations at all in Oklahoma. As the Tribal land was allotted (split up among the individual Tribal members) the Reservations were extinguished. Probably the last one was the Osage Reservation simply because the Osage were the last to be allotted. What we have instead is a checkerboard patter of Tribally owned "trust" lands (lands held in trust by the US for a specific Tribe and what is termed "restricted fee" lands (land owned by individual Tribal member, that have 'restrictions on alienation' imposed by the Federal government). Such lands cannot be sold, leased or mortgaged without approval from the Government, and as such is considered "Indian lands" as it applies to State control. Some of it may be free of ad valorum taxes, and businesses placed on such land have minimal state oversight, which is why smoke shops, gas stations and casinos, all of which are either heavily restricted and/or heavily taxed by the State, are built there.

I know about some of the towns you mention. Altus and Frederick are in the extreme SW part of the state and are both dependent on agriculture, although Altus also has an Air Force base. I don't know what other industries they have, but as agriculture becomes more mechanized the number of workers decreases. I think they are both County Seats, so there are a certain number of jobs , staff and lawyers, that seem to exist in almost any county.

Ponca City is a "victim" of the Conoco-Phillips merger. Prior to the merger, Conoco had a staff of professionals, such as engineers , accountants and others, doing work for not just the refinery but other Conoco offices in Ponca, as well as the staff of the refinery. Many of those "professional" jobs got moved to Bartlesville and merged with similar positions in what had been Phillips.

Pawhuska is the County Seat of Osage County. Principal industries are oil and gas and cattle. When those commodities have high prices, life is good, when they fall, times are hard.

I'll bet that Goodpasture could tell you more about these towns; he seems to have good handle on such things.

[happyjack70]

Thanks for the info Skip. In the southwest, we had our own version of Andrew Jackson. Kit Carson. Not anywhere near as ruthless as the likes of Andy, but he marched the Navajo's on their smaller version of a Trail of Tears to the present day big res. in northern Az. So,,,when a casino, smokeshop etc. is built in Ok., is it grandfathered land that was once and still is owned by a tribe member ? How much land in Ok. is owned by tribal members ? Which are the "civilized tribes " and who coined that elitist expression ? Maybe your way (Oklahoma's ) is better. Seems more integrating. So, way back when Ok. was still a territory, were there separate reservations for the different tribes ?

[linicx]

Jack,

COL is cost of living. Eastern Oklahoma is home to the Nine Tribes in NE OK that included the Miami, Seneca-Cayuga, Peoria, Wyandotte and others who mainly settled in Ottawa County. The Five tribes include the Cherokee National headquarters at Tahlequah in Delaware County. The Five tribes have a museum inside the entrance of Honor Park in Muskogee. Many of the Oklahoma tribes are Federally recognized which I think means more BIA and less OK in their affairs

I did a far amount of reading about the Indian history as it moved westward. Much of the OK tribes seem to have agreed on a land quid pro quo. It was great on paper except the government came back to take some or all and moved the tribes again. Miami and Wyandotte, for instance, is where you can find tribal headquarters near Grove. Some of the things you can find: smoke shops, golf course, museums, casino, powwow. Here is the OK Powwow calendar.

Pow Wow Calendar » Pow Wows in Oklahoma

I had Native American neighbors whom I loved dearly. I learned many things of native peoples. This should not be construed to mean that I know the formal name of every tribe, band, nation, subgroup. or confederation, or the tribal affiliation with every NDN I met. I don't. I was raised with Roy Rogers, Zorro, and Tonto.

[Johnhw2]

OP a couple of comments about durant. The Choctaw tribe owns the casino in durant. Durant is the current HQ of the Choctaw nation. The land question about reservations answered above for Oklahoma lands being in trust for the tribes is why you see no reservations in Oklahoma as in some states.

Durant is not shrinking as most of the other cities you noticed. It's growing not just due to the casino but due to its proximity to Dallas making it attractive to businesses such as Cardinal glass who built a large glass plant in durant to supply glass to their big accounts such as Andersen or pella windows. Also Big Lots has a large warehouse operations n in durant, a Singaporean stone distributor serves from OKC to Houston out of their durant location, and many other businesses locate in durant because of its proximity to Dallas (90 miles) and the favorable Oklahoma tax on business and property tax as well as the reputations n of the local schools.

Durant is more progressive than some of small town Oklahoma to allow fine dining and is pro growth. Its unemployment rate is low and with a significant casino expansion nearing completion more jobs will hit the market in months. The casino has been a good neighbor and brought in better restaurants and hotels and provided community activity centers and upgraded school facilties as a good neighbor in exchange for laws allowing wine in restaurants and less restrictions on gambling.

I've been to Las Vegas and Reno and far from them durant is by no means a casino dominated town as many other things are going on and growing in durant.

[Skip OK]

happyjack70,

In order to be free of State regulation, Indian owned businesses have to be on "Indian country" which is pretty much Trust and or restricted fee land. So for items with special state taxes, like tobacco and gasoline, or for businesses that are prohibited or severely restricted, like gaming, being on Trust or Restricted land is a must. For farming and grazing, or other activities where there is not an undue State regulatory burden, Tribes and individual may buy fee land (not Indian Country) or use Trust or restricted land. Tribes can also try to put land they own in fee into "trust" status.

I don't know exact numbers, but I'd be shocked if Trust and restricted land, at least if you don't count land recently put into Trust status. comprised more than 10-15% of all land in Oklahoma. I know the Chickasaws are very interested in establishing businesses (they have or had a chocolate factory, as well as a host of other businesses). I believe they have been quite successful in getting land they bought in fee put in Trust status.

Likewise the Cherokee, Choctaw, Osage, Cherokee and many of the nine tribes headquartered near Miami have been active not only with gaming and gas/tobacco sales, but in developing a tourism industry. Tribes in the western part of the state likewise are encouraging economic development but I have less direct knowledge of what they do.

The Five Tribe were named "Civilized" because, at the time of removal, many tribal members were living what we would call a "European" lifestyle, living in frame houses with sash windows Less affluent members lived in log cabins just like their (less affluent) white neighbors. They often wore "white man's:" clothes. They had complex political and tribal government interactions, and at least one of the Tribes developed their own independent method of writing (the Cherokee Syllabry [sp]), which is something no European nation can claim. They were, by any objective standard, "civilized", compared not only to other Tribes but to their non=Indian neighbors..

Also, Oklahoma was never a Territory; it was Two Territories: Indian Territory in the East and Oklahoma Territory to the West. There was talk about making each Territory its own state, but legend has it the Teddy Roosevelt was not ken on admitting a Democratically leaning state (IT) so he combined it the with the Republican leaning Oklahoma Territory.