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I am NOT a parent, but I love children. I had strict parents - an old-fashioned dad who did not hesitate to use the rod when my siblings and I misbehaved and ignored his verbal admonitions.
Not long ago, I was at a close friend's house for dinner. There was another married couple there as well.
We were sitting on the dinner table having coffee after the meal. My friend's son, who is nearly 4 (and an adorable but very hyper and sometimes difficult to control kid) slapped his 18-month old brother because the baby took some of the older boy's toys. The baby began to cry immediately.
Everyone's attention turned to the baby. My friend, who was sitting down with the guests and myself, told his wife, who was near the scene, to do something.
His wife's reaction?
She sat down with the rest of the adults. Not a stare, not a "NO!", not a slap in the butt, not even a caressing gesture to the crying kid.
He said, "what are you doing?"
She looked at him, smiled, and threw both palms up shrugging, saying, "why? You want him to cry too?"
Because I have a soft spot for kids, and because I've grown close to this family due to many visits and some outings, I went over to the scene. I picked up the baby and brought him to my seat, all the while he cried hysterically. After a minute or two my friend's wife took him from me, and said to the older boy, "come, let's go." She took his hand and took him upstairs.
I was flabbergasted. The mother (and in fairness, the dad/my friend) took absolutely no disciplinary action whatsoever. The older boy, after slapping his brother, calmly sat on the couch and began to watch TV, oblivious to his brother's crying and apathetic to the adults who were watching the whole thing.
I will give more details as to the older boy's behavior and personality; from what I've seen of this child over several visits during the span of several months, this wasn't the first time he did something like this. But before I say anything further... parents, do you agree with me that the mom (and dad) were in error to let the older boy get away with what he did?
Yes, they were both wrong not to address the child's behavior and to address each other the way they did (waiting for the other one to respond, blaming, excuses, etc.).
I have seen parents behave in this manner and IMO it is not just a parenting issue but a marital issue. If they don't agree on basic parenting then their relationship will continue to suffer child related stresses as the kids get older. In addition, the kids will quickly learn that they can manipulate both parents very effectively and just do what they want...seems the 4yo already knows how to play the game.
What you will have then is the kids running the house with no respect for each other, parents or guests. Soon, you won't want to join them for dinner anymore because the price of having to tolerate the family dynamics won't be worth the free meal and coffee.
A four year old will hit but tolerating hitting of siblings is similar to allowing abuse to happen.
I grew up with my older brother able to hit me when he felt like it (hey, boys will be boys, stop being a girl and crying). He even threw items at me but my parents tolerated it. To this day I have negative feelings toward him because of it.
I think parents need to step in and STOP this instead of shrugging it off as 'kids will be kids."
It drives me nuts when parents allow siblings to abuse each other. Almost every parent I can think of lets it happen!
I have one close friend with 4 kids. The 3rd youngest is *ahem* a "handful". He can beat the crap out of the little one, and often the next older with little to no consequences. Why? because mom has to control him all day, and this is so regular that she chooses to "let them figure it out".
I mean, there is a bully hurting her 4 year old! Stop it and send him away! I don't care that the bully is her son, she needs to protect her child and teach BOTH of them appropriate ways to treat people AND what is an appropriate way to allow someone to treat themselves!!
He is an affectionate child, and he is also energetic. His baby bro is very shy and quiet, but "Bobby" is quite the extrovert. He talks a lot, runs, and when on outings, my friends have to be careful with him because the moment the family car's door opens, he RUNS out.
He's excitable, curious, and a lovable child... but he's also turning into a little brat, in my opinion.
I've seen his mother ask him, "Bobby are you a good boy or a bad boy?" And Bobby says, "bad boy."
I've seen him slap his older sister (who is 8 and also an introvert) in the face more than once. I've had to step in to stop him from hitting, and I've even had to verbally discipline him (no yelling, but telling him hitting is wrong). In one occasion, Bobby slapped his sister in the face so hard that the sound of the slap startled me. She did not hit him back (in part, I believe, because her parents don't let her hit him back - which is another mistake IMO, but that's another point). I immediately went over to the scene, picked up Bobby, stood him up on a piece of furniture so his eyes would be level with mine, and asked him, "why did you hit your sister?"
In my experience, most children begin to pout and look down in embarrassment right away. Bobby did not. He stared straight into my eyes, and his chest heaved with anger, and his face had a look of stubbornness and defiance. I stared HIM down, raised my voice a bit, and asked him again why he'd hit her. THEN he softened. I called her over, put him on the floor, and told him to hug her and to say sorry. Bobby was now mellow, hugged her, and apologized... and they resumed playing.
I'm quite close to my friend, so over drinks I felt compelled to tell him of these incidents. He said he does physically discipline Bobby (I've seen him do it) but from his comments, I inferred his wife is spoiling him. In fact, on my last visit, I saw Bobby take a piece of fruit from the baby. I said, "hey, that is the baby's fruit, isn't it?" Bobby just gave it to the baby and "ran away." My friend's wife later made a comment that I sensed to have a bit of annoyance at my having pointed out Bobby having taken the baby's fruit. Yes, in my opinion, the wife does have a clear bias.
In the end, Bobby is not my business, so if he turns out into a total brat or into a paragon of good manners, it won't affect me much. But I gotta say, I'm learning a lot about parenting by just watching other people and their kids.
A four year old will hit but tolerating hitting of siblings is similar to allowing abuse to happen.
I grew up with my older brother able to hit me when he felt like it (hey, boys will be boys, stop being a girl and crying). He even threw items at me but my parents tolerated it. To this day I have negative feelings toward him because of it.
I think parents need to step in and STOP this instead of shrugging it off as 'kids will be kids."
Sorry you went through this. My older brother was sometimes abusive too, but at least my dad disciplined him (and me) harshly when we crossed the line.
It's safe to say that if Bobby were my son, I would have disciplined him immediately and firmly the moment the baby had begun crying - even though there were guests present.
To me, this is neglect. I know I will get flamed for this - but under NO circumstances do you allow a child to hit another, do nothing about it, and refuse to comfort a crying 18 month old who has no idea what was going on. 'That hurt, mom - why aren't you doing something?!!'is what I imagine was going through the poor thing's mind.
What really bothers me, is this the way they react at home, too? How much hitting/abuse is that baby taking while mom does nothing? I would like to think perhaps she did nothing because they were not at home, but I am guessing otherwise.
IMO - the 4 year old would have been jerked up from his chair, at the very LEAST gotten a horrific scolding, and made to sit on the couch with NO t.v. until everyone else was finished. He also should have been made to apologize to the baby, and the others in the room. The baby should have been comforted immediately, and checked out for bumps and lumps. How can you let your kid cry after something like that? It's not like he dropped a toy and needed to be patient!
When my kids were small (3 years apart) we went through spells of hitting and biting, and I did not stand for it. The oldest was popped in whatever fashion I saw fit, depending on the severity of the blow to the baby, and if the baby did the hitting, he was scolded, told no, we don't do that, and made to apologize and hug bubby. EVEN when he was very small and had no idea what an apology was. That's how they learn.
Everyone knows I am a spanker, and there will be comments as to 'how can you tell your child not to hit when they see you hitting' - but there is a line there.
Kids hit out of frustration and anger - parents SHOULD be doing it for discipline, and most of all, out of love. Not all parents spank, and that is their perrogitive, but choose something to discipline - with love - otherwise you will have a child as you just described with no realization of cause and effect - knowing there are no consequences for any action.
To me, this is neglect. I know I will get flamed for this - but under NO circumstances do you allow a child to hit another, do nothing about it, and refuse to comfort a crying 18 month old who has no idea what was going on. 'That hurt, mom - why aren't you doing something?!!'is what I imagine was going through the poor thing's mind.
What really bothers me, is this the way they react at home, too? How much hitting/abuse is that baby taking while mom does nothing? I would like to think perhaps she did nothing because they were not at home, but I am guessing otherwise.
IMO - the 4 year old would have been jerked up from his chair, at the very LEAST gotten a horrific scolding, and made to sit on the couch with NO t.v. until everyone else was finished. He also should have been made to apologize to the baby, and the others in the room. The baby should have been comforted immediately, and checked out for bumps and lumps. How can you let your kid cry after something like that? It's not like he dropped a toy and needed to be patient!
When my kids were small (3 years apart) we went through spells of hitting and biting, and I did not stand for it. The oldest was popped in whatever fashion I saw fit, depending on the severity of the blow to the baby, and if the baby did the hitting, he was scolded, told no, we don't do that, and made to apologize and hug bubby. EVEN when he was very small and had no idea what an apology was. That's how they learn.
Everyone knows I am a spanker, and there will be comments as to 'how can you tell your child not to hit when they see you hitting' - but there is a line there.
Kids hit out of frustration and anger - parents SHOULD be doing it for discipline, and most of all, out of love. Not all parents spank, and that is their perrogitive, but choose something to discipline - with love - otherwise you will have a child as you just described with no realization of cause and effect - knowing there are no consequences for any action.
I am so glad you stepped in. Someone had to.
The children were AT Home. I, and a couple, were the guests.
I like your style of parenting btw, it's pretty much the style I'll employ if/when I have kids.
BTW - the baby is extremely quiet and very mellow, but as he cried in pain (and probably anger), once I sat back down at the dinner table and tried to comfort him, he reached for my face and scratched me. I jerked my head away in surprise at how sharp it felt. I interpreted it as anger - he probably wanted to hit Bobby.
I've seen his mother ask him, "Bobby are you a good boy or a bad boy?" And Bobby says, "bad boy."
This kid needs help.
In my experience, most children begin to pout and look down in embarrassment right away. Bobby did not. He stared straight into my eyes, and his chest heaved with anger, and his face had a look of stubbornness and defiance. I stared HIM down, raised my voice a bit, and asked him again why he'd hit her. THEN he softened. I called her over, put him on the floor, and told him to hug her and to say sorry. Bobby was now mellow, hugged her, and apologized... and they resumed playing.
Good for you!
Yes, in my opinion, the wife does have a clear bias.
This mother needs a shrink.
In the end, Bobby is not my business, so if he turns out into a total brat or into a paragon of good manners, it won't affect me much. But I gotta say, I'm learning a lot about parenting by just watching other people and their kids.
I have to say, you are absolutely learning alot - and I am afraid, for some reason, this seems to be the way of the world these days. I don't understand - maybe I am just too old school - but I prefer the 'leave it to beaver' days and the 'waltons'. The kids behaved and were lovingly disciplined, and the parents did what they had to do.
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