How to reduce the number and length of power outages? (Stroudsburg: lawyers, homes)

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

High-tension, long-distance power lines can't be moved underground due to leakage/loss/(grounding) issues; but it seems just about impossible to explain this to a non-technical public easily swayed by over-simplified environmentalism.

True.

But the overwhelming majority of the outages are caused by downed local area transmission and distribution lines. Those lines are also the reason for those tree-pruning requirements and ordinances, not to mention some of the grotesque Y-shaped trees I see on some Philadelphia-area streets.

And these can be buried. Yes, it's not cheap, but you get three benefits: fewer outages, longer-lasting cables (if they're properly protected from critters) and no more misshapen trees - and more of them in cities, as those wires will no longer act as a disincentive to planting street trees. More street trees = reduced urban heat island effect and quite likely lower utility bills for homes with shade trees now sitting in front of them.

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by Bailey340

Move more power lines underground.

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

High-tension, long-distance power lines can't be moved underground due to leakage/loss/(grounding) issues; but it seems just about impossible to explain this to a non-technical public easily swayed by over-simplified environmentalism.

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

True.

But the overwhelming majority of the outages are caused by downed local area transmission and distribution lines. Those lines are also the reason for those tree-pruning requirements and ordinances, not to mention some of the grotesque Y-shaped trees I see on some Philadelphia-area streets.

And these can be buried. Yes, it's not cheap, but you get three benefits: fewer outages, longer-lasting cables (if they're properly protected from critters) and no more misshapen trees - and more of them in cities, as those wires will no longer act as a disincentive to planting street trees. More street trees = reduced urban heat island effect and quite likely lower utility bills for homes with shade trees now sitting in front of them.

A fair point I have no reason to contest; my dispute is with the militantly-misinformed minority who believe that all power lines can be buried.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by 2nd trick op

A fair point I have no reason to contest; my dispute is with the militantly-misinformed minority who believe that all power lines can be buried.

Just to clarify this question, out of the high voltages we use for long distant transmission; how much voltage is too high (69 kV, 115 kV, 230 kV, 500 kV, 765 kV)? I don't know; but I would presume that, the higher the voltage, the more expensive the insulation becomes.

I had a 12 kV neon sign transformer years ago and that would throw a two or three inch spark. I would presume that the 500 kV and 765 kV could throw sparks well over a foot? Any breach in the insulation, with that kind of voltage and amperage, would be explosive. Many of us, that live in a rural area, have heard transformers blow up when squirrels or raccoons ended up in the wrong place. Most of those transformers are hooked up to the lower voltage of the high voltage transmission lines - but they still make a loud explosion.

[fisheye]

We just had another power outage. Fortunately it only lasted one half to one hour.

PS Here is one more invasive pest to add to the number of dead trees: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/sci...208-story.html.

[Gerania]

Originally Posted by fisheye

We just had another power outage. Fortunately it only lasted one half to one hour.

PS Here is one more invasive pest to add to the number of dead trees: Maryland braces for invasion of lanternflies, races to slow their spread - Baltimore Sun.

My power was out three times this past month. I have a gas stove and an old tent heater, so I was fine. I just love to wear a parka and hat in the house.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by Gerania

My power was out three times this past month. I have a gas stove and an old tent heater, so I was fine. I just love to wear a parka and hat in the house.

Kind of brings out your pioneering days! We could use a few less outages!

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by fisheye

We just had another power outage. Fortunately it only lasted one half to one hour.

PS Here is one more invasive pest to add to the number of dead trees: Maryland braces for invasion of lanternflies, races to slow their spread - Baltimore Sun.

Just out of curiosity, are these mini-outages being caused by trees/limbs or something else?

I ask because down here we had outages constantly when the building boom started in the late 1980s. The lines weren't sized to handle the new demands put on them and transformers would short out whenever the load got too great (all the new houses had heat pumps so cold or hot weather would strain the system and bang, we'd be out of power).

Has your area had a lot of new development recently?

It took the electric company (BGE in our case but also a cooperative in the rest of the area) several years to upgrade the lines to handle the new loads.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Just out of curiosity, are these mini-outages being caused by trees/limbs or something else?

I ask because down here we had outages constantly when the building boom started in the late 1980s. The lines weren't sized to handle the new demands put on them and transformers would short out whenever the load got too great (all the new houses had heat pumps so cold or hot weather would strain the system and bang, we'd be out of power).

Has your area had a lot of new development recently?

It took the electric company (BGE in our case but also a cooperative in the rest of the area) several years to upgrade the lines to handle the new loads.

Right now it looks like less than 100 people in PP&L territory are out of power: https://omap.prod.pplweb.com/OMAP. This morning it looked like about 3,000. I have to presume that yesterday around 5:00 O'clock there were many thousands out of power. Metropolitan Edison has over 100 out of power currently: FirstEnergy Storm Center PA - they do have a larger area.

I would presume, as you look at their maps, that it is trees/limbs down. It looks like a shotgun pattern.

I am not familiar with the Met ED map as much as PP&L since I am their system. I know that the PP&L map changes frequently as power is lost or restored. That fact by itself suggest that it is a tree issue. But when you look at the maps during wind storms you can almost 'see' the trees falling. Or, at least, you can 'see' it until your power fails!

Those maps can also help you prepare for the next event. As you see the numbers grow; so does you chance of losing power. I almost predicted our power loss during the first nor'easter that we had simply by looking at the map.

PS I forgot! If you zoom in on those maps it tells you exactly why the power is out - most say tree damage!

[cremebrulee]

fisheye
Should property owners be responsible to remove dead trees that can threaten utility lines or our roads? If this is the direction that we are going; is there room for negotiation where companies that sell firewood could 'help' property owners bear some of the cost of removal? Or; is this all on the State, local government, and utility companies since they are the ones that 'own' the right-of-ways? Of course liability will enter into this discussion since removing trees can be deadly. What are our PA laws and what does PA insurance say about tree removal?

It would depend on where the tree is located, as there is a 10 foot property frontage that the state owns, right? So if the tree is within that area, the state needs to take care of it, if I'm wrong, wash that one?

Nobody wants to go without power for days. That is what is happening now with major storms. If we removed all dead wood we could be ahead of the game. It is not a perfect solution; because live trees still fall. Maybe somebody, that works for a utility company can tell us what percentage of dead trees cause power outages? I am asking if there is anyway we can do a better job preparing so we can reduce the amount of misery?

You are absolutely right, we've had some really bad storms around here, and by the poorly maintained trees around the wires, I'm shocked that it wasn't worse. They surely do not remove the trees from around the wires like they used to....and they should...

And I'm also referring to privet property owners, seems like everyone leaves their trees grow wild, no one trims trees any longer. My mom used to trim hers every two to three years...to get all those crappy branches off that break off during the wind, and to allow the trunks to grow stronger along with the main branches.

Now if the electric company trims trees, they cut the middle out just where the wire is going thru the tree and it looks awful.

I'm for underground lines?

What to do, I don't know, just putting my two cents in....lol

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

It would depend on where the tree is located, as there is a 10 foot property frontage that the state owns, right? So if the tree is within that area, the state needs to take care of it, if I'm wrong, wash that one?

My sister, that works for our Township, tells me that the State right-of-way for Route 611 varies from 33 feet to 100 feet through our Township. I presume that the 33 foot areas are through Tannersville? When you figure in utility right-of-ways, keeping in mind that we just ran new sewage and water lines, that does not give too much wiggle room.

When you travel though Ohio you can see many snow fences that are set back 100 foot from the edge of their roads. If that is their State right-of-way; they left plenty of room for roads to be widened and trees to be cleared.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

You are absolutely right, we've had some really bad storms around here, and by the poorly maintained trees around the wires, I'm shocked that it wasn't worse. They surely do not remove the trees from around the wires like they used to....and they should...

And I'm also referring to privet property owners, seems like everyone leaves their trees grow wild, no one trims trees any longer. My mom used to trim hers every two to three years...to get all those crappy branches off that break off during the wind, and to allow the trunks to grow stronger along with the main branches.

Now if the electric company trims trees, they cut the middle out just where the wire is going thru the tree and it looks awful.

I'm for underground lines?

What to do, I don't know, just putting my two cents in....lol

With the underground lines you might have five times the cost and then still not be able to put the higher voltage lines underground.

It is going to get worse before it gets better; especially with all the cost cutting measures for both government and the utilities - nobody wants to pay. My feeling is that we need government leadership; but that can come with a cost. I do not know if we are willing to pay? I would still like to see some compromise where companies (that are licensed and insured) are allowed to remove the problem trees and use some of the profit, from the wood, to offset the cost. Of course the landowners would get first choice; but only for a set time - they clean up their properties, that threaten roads and utilities, or somebody cleans it up for them.

There is no 'easy' solution that will make all people happy.