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and the state has had left liberal leaders for years now, it's time they get to work and use our money for which is was allocated.
Sorry, no, for at least three reasons I can think of.
• I moved here 37 years ago from a state with a serious tradition of progressivism, Massachusetts. Massachusetts Republicans often sound like centrist Pennsylvania Democrats. Massachusetts Democrats make liberal Pennsylvania Democrats sound like Missouri Democrats. (I'm a Missouri native.)
• This state has a long tradition of centrism, whether from the left or the right. The one really conservative (as opposed to center-right like Tom Ridge) Republican Governor we've had since I moved here, Tom Corbett, just became the first Pennsylvania Governor to fail to win re-election since Pennsylvania governors were allowed to succeed themselves in 1970. Up until then, the sitting Governor won re-election, and the opposing party took over the Governor's Mansion in the next election.
• The Republicans have controlled both houses of the General Assembly since Gov. Ed Rendell (the first Philadelphian to hold the office since 1911) began his second term, or maybe even midway through his first. It says something about Corbett that the electorate considered his term a failure despite his party controlling both elected branches of the state government. And relevant to this discussion: The current transportation funding formula took effect in the last year of Corbett's term, three years after he shelved the recommendation of a blue-ribbon commission he appointed to study the issue because that commission called for a hike in the state gas tax. At least doing that was realistic, in contrast to the strategy the boys in Harrisburg pursued during the Rendell administration.
And that strategy was driven by the legislators, not the Governor - Rendell had proposed leasing the Pennsylvania Turnpike system to a private concessionaire, as Republican Gov. Mitch Daniels had done in Indiana in order to fund that state's transportation program, which it did for about a decade afterward. But the General Assembly, worried that it would lose a convenient place to park their friends and supporters in cushy state jobs, pursued a strategy of tolling I-80 (which was to have been part of the Turnpike system before the Interstate Highway Act was passed) instead. Even though the Feds told them twice that they couldn't do what they wanted because the Federal law that allowed tolls on freeways built with Interstate money in four states stipulated that the toll revenues could only be spent on the tolled road, they tried it once more after Barack Obama succeeded George W. Bush as President (I remember asking someone in SEPTA management at a news conference at that time why the Commonwealth was doing this and getting the answer, "We felt that with the change of administration in Washington, we would have a better chance of approval." Sorry, but the new Administration didn't change the rule.
And trust me on this one, the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission is a bipartisan patronage haven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wharton
Your repeated claims that you patch asphalt roads with concrete.
I'm really not famiiar at all with road construction and repair methods beyond some basics, but unless I'm mistaken, aren't many of this state's primary highways, and all of its freeways once they've undergone their first repavings, asphalt over concrete?
I'm sure the quality of repaving has improved: I could feel and hear sound of the tires thumping on the expansion joints beneath the asphalt riding on the US 30 Downingtown Bypass in Chester County yesterday, but feel nothing of the sort on either US 202 or the rebuilt US 422 and Schuylkill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wharton
So you want to take a system here, where the state has hundreds of millions invested in assets, from trucks and heavy equipment, to repair garages and material storage facilities, and liquidate it, and see thousands of hard working Pennsylvanians lose their jobs? Then you want to recreate that same infrastructure at the county level, because.........................? You do understand that the state hands those counties and smaller units, like townships, near a BILLION a year to do the work you speak of, right? You certainly took into account that some counties are so small, and underpopulated, that they barely have a full time government to speak of, and would contract out every dime they get, thus getting less for every dollar they spend? You certainly thought about the fact that some counties are notorious for corruption, and will take a windfall like that with glee, as senior management steals what they can, and awards contracts to their dirty buddies.
Finally, you took into account that, as the primary poster on this thread illustrates, that bitching about roads is a hobby for a lot of folks in this state? If the roads were totally rebuilt to state of the art, and ever one of the 40K+ miles of state roads and 25K+ state bridges were replaced, and the trillions of dollars spent came from some magical source that didn't cost them a dime, they would STILL be bitching until the day of their funeral.
It's Pennsylvania, it's what we do
Aside to Craziowskiboi: If I'm not mistaken, in many of the states where you see blue pentagons identifying "county" highways, those roads - like the ones with four-digit route numbers marked by section markers at intersections in Pennsylvania - are considered state secondary highways, and money for their repair and construction comes out of the state's transportation budget. I'm pretty certain that's the case in both New Jersey and New York.
unless you desire to continue to play a disgruntled state worker who is in defense of what and how our money is being spent.
LOL, on the state worker comment. Being an educated adult who is willing to do a bit of work to be knowledgeable regarding the issues and metrics involved with our state's infrastructure only qualifies one as being a "disgruntled state worker", IF that concept is being viewed by a someone who has no interest in truth, facts or knowledge. You are beating a horse that died a long time ago. If you spent endless pages of a thread, or wore out a bar stool "educating" other patrons, a decade or two ago, with your views on the topic, you would have some validity to a bit of what you claim.
When I discuss things like chipseal, concrete patching, or other methods or repair, it is in the context of the entirety of the road system here. The vast majority of which never had, and never will have, a concrete base. Doesn't matter if it's a Penndot crew, a contractor, or the local township's road crew doing repairs, most of their work is either fully, or partially funded by the state, and unlike your claims, is not inferior since you once did repairs to state highways and are some "expert".
I would invite you to tell any PA township road master, with a few decades of experience, that the few hundred miles of roads he is responsible for are being maintained incompetently, since he doesn't use concrete for repair work, sends his crews out in the winter with a load of cold patch to do temporarily pothole patching, or is wasting his time by resurfacing and extending the life of some of his secondary roads by chip-sealing them. About the politest response you could hope for is "have a nice day, gramps. I've got work to do."
BTW, I spent 25 years living on a newly built township road that was only tar and chip. Initial specs. included a compacted gravel base, with a total build-up of layered material to a thickness of 2.5 inches. It is still in great shape and has been re-coated with an additional layer twice, IIRC. According to you, this is simply impossible since the entire concept is unworkable, and all the gravel simply washes away. Huh? I guess the hundreds of folks living on that road weren't told that the durable, inexpensive, rural road they live on is totally illegitimate, and will wash away as soon as it's constructed? Guess they needed an internet expert to intervene before that money was wasted, eh? That township also had a long stretch of state road that was done with a proprietary epoxy based chipseal. I paid attention to that road for the next decade, while commuting on it, everyday. That turned out to be an extraordinarily long lasting surface, with excellent traction. My township's roadmaster was a neighbor for decades. A guy like most of us, who was hard working and serious about doing the most and best with whatever funds he could get to maintain the roads in his jurisdiction.
BTW, Two other neighbors and friends on my street were JDM employees at Bossardsville. I've placed over a thousand yards of JDM concrete, in everything from underground utility work, to foundations. When I built one of my personal homes, I was given the concrete for a small fraction of the going rate, as a thank you for all the business I did with them.
I've been around a bit, and done a few things. One thing I don't do is pretend that it's back in the day, or that the the tens of millions worth of road work that happens in my county every year isn't happening, or that I'm getting screwed by a state that isn't making a hugely expanded effort to restore our road infrastructure. You really need to do some travelling and see what a low tax state, with poor roads REALLY looks like. I spend some time in New Orleans at least once a year. I see the results of what it's like to "save" 40-50 cents a gallon on gas, and drive in a state where they just let bridges and roadways decay to the point of failure. It is quite the contrast to how good you actually have it here.
LOL, on the state worker comment. Being an educated adult who is willing to do a bit of work to be knowledgeable regarding the issues and metrics involved with our state's infrastructure only qualifies one as being a "disgruntled state worker", IF that concept is being viewed by a someone who has no interest in truth, facts or knowledge. You are beating a horse that died a long time ago. If you spent endless pages of a thread, or wore out a bar stool "educating" other patrons, a decade or two ago, with your views on the topic, you would have some validity to a bit of what you claim.
When I discuss things like chipseal, concrete patching, or other methods or repair, it is in the context of the entirety of the road system here. The vast majority of which never had, and never will have, a concrete base. Doesn't matter if it's a Penndot crew, a contractor, or the local township's road crew doing repairs, most of their work is either fully, or partially funded by the state, and unlike your claims, is not inferior since you once did repairs to state highways and are some "expert".
I would invite you to tell any PA township road master, with a few decades of experience, that the few hundred miles of roads he is responsible for are being maintained incompetently, since he doesn't use concrete for repair work, sends his crews out in the winter with a load of cold patch to do temporarily pothole patching, or is wasting his time by resurfacing and extending the life of some of his secondary roads by chip-sealing them. About the politest response you could hope for is "have a nice day, gramps. I've got work to do."
BTW, I spent 25 years living on a newly built township road that was only tar and chip. Initial specs. included a compacted gravel base, with a total build-up of layered material to a thickness of 2.5 inches. It is still in great shape and has been re-coated with an additional layer twice, IIRC. According to you, this is simply impossible since the entire concept is unworkable, and all the gravel simply washes away. Huh? I guess the hundreds of folks living on that road weren't told that the durable, inexpensive, rural road they live on is totally illegitimate, and will wash away as soon as it's constructed? Guess they needed an internet expert to intervene before that money was wasted, eh? That township also had a long stretch of state road that was done with a proprietary epoxy based chipseal. I paid attention to that road for the next decade, while commuting on it, everyday. That turned out to be an extraordinarily long lasting surface, with excellent traction. My township's roadmaster was a neighbor for decades. A guy like most of us, who was hard working and serious about doing the most and best with whatever funds he could get to maintain the roads in his jurisdiction.
BTW, Two other neighbors and friends on my street were JDM employees at Bossardsville. I've placed over a thousand yards of JDM concrete, in everything from underground utility work, to foundations. When I built one of my personal homes, I was given the concrete for a small fraction of the going rate, as a thank you for all the business I did with them.
I've been around a bit, and done a few things. One thing I don't do is pretend that it's back in the day, or that the the tens of millions worth of road work that happens in my county every year isn't happening, or that I'm getting screwed by a state that isn't making a hugely expanded effort to restore our road infrastructure. You really need to do some travelling and see what a low tax state, with poor roads REALLY looks like. I spend some time in New Orleans at least once a year. I see the results of what it's like to "save" 40-50 cents a gallon on gas, and drive in a state where they just let bridges and roadways decay to the point of failure. It is quite the contrast to how good you actually have it here.
and you have spent endless pages and time saying the same things over and over again....rants
and I don't believe in any of my rants I called you a liar...did I?
Not even going to waste my time going thru this senseless rant of yours....
Not even going to waste my time going thru this senseless rant of yours....
we agree to disagree......
Nothing wrong with you finally stopping your babbling. Of course you disagree, you have made numerous claims that directly contradict the reality of how and why things are done in the real world. I was in the business, a significant customer of your employer, and spent decades dealing with local municipal officials, and others in the business. I carefully explain how things are done in this state, with what level of funding, and how and why that spending has show obvious results. What else is left for you to say? It's your choice of deciding to not respond at all, which probably would of been best, or to dismiss reality as a "senseless rant".
I'm heading out to door shortly. For the first eight miles of my journey, I will be gliding on $6 million+ worth of newly rebuilt state highways. Then I will spent the next 15 miles on township roads that are in solid condition, pothole free, and maintained with financial assistance from the DOT general fund. That trip will be over several bridges that have been totally rebuilt or replaced in the last couple of years. Huh, I guess I'll stop now, since you deny this reality, I am obviously engaging in a "senseless rant".
Nothing wrong with you finally stopping your babbling. Of course you disagree, you have made numerous claims that directly contradict the reality of how and why things are done in the real world. I was in the business, a significant customer of your employer, and spent decades dealing with local municipal officials, and others in the business. I carefully explain how things are done in this state, with what level of funding, and how and why that spending has show obvious results. What else is left for you to say? It's your choice of deciding to not respond at all, which probably would of been best, or to dismiss reality as a "senseless rant".
I'm heading out to door shortly. For the first eight miles of my journey, I will be gliding on $6 million+ worth of newly rebuilt state highways. Then I will spent the next 15 miles on township roads that are in solid condition, pothole free, and maintained with financial assistance from the DOT general fund. That trip will be over several bridges that have been totally rebuilt or replaced in the last couple of years. Huh, I guess I'll stop now, since you deny this reality, I am obviously engaging in a "senseless rant".
Thanks for all your valuable input.
Yes, you carefully explain how things are done in this state now.....exactly and my point.
I'm putting you on ignore....basically all you do is bully a poster you don't agree with, so we're done talking....
talk about not being in touch with reality.....
Oh and BTW, I am a woman, and I don't do bars....or bar stools, in my last few years with Morrissey, I helped install 3 sections of I-78 as field office manager.
Jun 27, 2017 - Pennsylvania's rural roadways and bridges are among the most ... to be going faster for the roads they're on, increasing their safety risks, the study found. ... That ranked the Keystone State as the third worst in the country, ...
Currently, there's a lot of road and bridge construction taking place in PA. PennDot has a handy little tool to see what/where and how much. Road & Bridge Construction
Currently, there's a lot of road and bridge construction taking place in PA. PennDot has a handy little tool to see what/where and how much. Road & Bridge Construction
Can't be tue. Eight pages of a expert here, who will tell you none of it's happening, and it's still a decade ago. :
Seriously though, my county has had a massive amount of repaving and rebuilding going on for the last two years+. We have contracts awarded to outfits from all over the map, including a bridge contractor from Utah. Pretty hard to deny that things are looking up when additional billions are being spent for more and more work.
Yes, you carefully explain how things are done in this state now.....exactly and my point.
I'm putting you on ignore....basically all you do is bully a poster you don't agree with, so we're done talking....
talk about not being in touch with reality.....
Oh and BTW, I am a woman, and I don't do bars....or bar stools, in my last few years with Morrissey, I helped install 3 sections of I-78 as field office manager.
So much for you assuming....
Ignore you go....
So your point is that everything I discussed at length, that being, best practice for the funding available to maintain 120K thousand miles of roads, and tens of thousands of bridges, is exactly YOUR point. It would be really interesting to know exactly what your point was, in eight pages of spewing incorrect information? The fact that you have to point out that you are a female is sad. I could care less. I have worked for, and with, many extremely competent women and plenty of useless men. Competent people do not need to identify their gender to prove anything. When I traveled hundreds of thousands of miles on PA roads, built, maintained, and repaired using techniques that YOU claim are invalid, I would say that as a "Field office manager" you should of actually addressed what you OBSERVED out in the FIELD, not gotten tripped up by your rigid opinions of that which you know little of.
Currently, there's a lot of road and bridge construction taking place in PA. PennDot has a handy little tool to see what/where and how much. Road & Bridge Construction
Yes, your right, there is a lot of "repair" going on, but as I said before, it's simply a band aide, they are putting top (overlay) over roads that are broken up and cracked....and they should be torn up and totally replaced....and to the roads I mentioned earlier, nothing is being done....checked your handy tool....
Please, before judging, take a ride on the Route 309 by-pass, going North and South, or Rt. 113 into Souderton, more towards Souderton, and old Rout 309 from A&T automobiles into Souderton...deplorable, and all they do is keep filling an already distressed road with patch which breaks up especially when trucks run over them.
I also posted many photographs of distressed roads, which I believe people simply pass over....but hey, ????
what ever!
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